Corgan calls Iha “one of the worst human beings I’ve ever met”

[Morlock]

I wonder what would happen if Jeff, Nicole or Mikey wrote a song for the band. How would Billy react?

[Catherine Wheel]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

why do so many people assume that James is just a nice guy who did no wrong and billy is just making shit up?

It's obvious from the behavior of both of them that they were not getting along. I doubt that the destruction of their relationship was all billy's fault. the band was dysfunctional. everybody in the band was/is dysfunctional. James is not an innocent victim. he was there with the rest of them, making dumb ass decisions, doing stupid things, blowing up one of the best bands that ever existed.

There is no real evidence that James was dysfunctional. But there is a lot of evidence that Billy, Jimmy, and Darcy were dysfunctional.

[Trotskilicious]

you know band members hating each other isn't unusual

[duovamp]

James is a nice lady!

[Catherine Wheel]

That's true. But I'm sure Billy's narcissism made it an even more difficult situation than it already was.

[subzero]

i think once the band wasn't the biggest band in the world, and sales began to drop that things fell apart between james and billy. when they were huge and selling millions of albums, they could tolerate each other, but once that stopped, it wasn't worth it anymore.

i also think james got sick of billy calling the shots all the time.

[scottytheoneand]

I'm just saying that there's a faction in the fan community that views James as some kind of angel that never sinned.

there is no reason to assume that the guy was some kind of innocent. they were all adults. they signed contracts (agreeing to the terms of their business relationships). they made music together. they toured together. At least two of them were fucking each other.

I don't buy the "James can do no wrong" story. It doesn't mean everything billy says is gospel. Just that the two of them have shit between them and it can't all be billy's fault.

[scottytheoneand]

Originally Posted by subzero

i also think james got sick of billy calling the shots all the time.

based on what? when did James say that?

[scottytheoneand]

this entire narrative is just a knee jerk reaction against billy's statements

fans seem to agree there's something bad between them. but even if you don't believe billy, that doesn't suggest that it's all billy's fault.

[subzero]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

based on what? when did James say that?

i think him and darcy were capable of playing their parts on SD, but since billy could play them better, billy decided to play them.

i also believe james had more music that wasn't put on their albums

and no, it hasn't been said, but billy was clearly the alpha dog, and hes admitted playing all the parts, and so has butch.

[samuel redman]

Bill says a lot of things, but i do believe that Iha probably is a real piece of shit

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

this entire narrative is just a knee jerk reaction against billy's statements

fans seem to agree there's something bad between them. but even if you don't believe billy, that doesn't suggest that it's all billy's fault.

to me it seems like a classic case of an overcommunicator rubbing an undercommunicator the wrong way

i think bill probably expected more from james, given how prone he is to complain about his work ethic and drive but bill is something else in that regard and i'm not sure how much he understands what a lunatic he really is

and james probably never ever talked to bill or anyone else about anything that was bothering him so it became a narrative of its own, in a vacuum

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by subzero

i think him and darcy were capable of playing their parts on SD, but since billy could play them better, billy decided to play them.

i also believe james had more music that wasn't put on their albums...and hes admitted playing all the parts, and so has butch.

no need to debate on this. they could obviously play their parts; but the massive amount of guitar overdubs Vigg favoured required more technical ability than either Iha or D'arcy possessed - which was apparent after a number of failures and wasted sessions - so he asked Billy to do their parts. no suggestion that this occurred on subsequent albums, because Flood didn't work in the same way.

[Catherine Wheel]

Billy had certain expectations of James given that he was the co-founder of the group. James didn't live up to those expectations leaving Billy to do the bulk of the songwriting. Billy resents James for not playing more of a lead role. But being a leader isn't what James is good at and prone to do so those expectations were unrealistic. Billy thought the band was going to be more of a partnership than it actually was.

[Trotskilicious]

i seriously doubt that

[teh b0lly!!1]

have you people forgotten all the stories told over the years.
yeah they were all told by corgan but it's fairly easy to know which stories are biased and which sound like they make a lot of sense.

billy was being the big boss 89 through 96, rejecting james' work left and right, playing his parts himself, demolishing his self confidence but giving him fame and fortune. james is very uncommunicative so he just builds up on this massive bitterness inside, musters up much less motivation to contribute to the band in any way and just kind of goes through the motions - something billy, being an awful, awful narcissist, sees as a personal insult to himself. i remember on his confessions he had this entire blog entry about how for the recording of adore he (billy) decided that the band shall live in some mansion together, as a means of clustering up as a musical unit and recovering their friendships a little, etc, and james would have none of it and refused to move in, something billy saw as the ultimate humiliation and insult. i also remember that he once told some journalist he once got on his knees and begged james to just be out, tell him what's wrong, work it out (p sure james wasn't even speaking to him throughout much of the last tour) and james just walked away. all symptoms of the same thing - billy trying to milk some emotional response out of james, james acting completely passive aggressive.
he kept quiet for seven years but once he had enough he just didn't leave billy any room to try and repair their relationships, he just shut him out completely. and in billy's eyes, after all he's given him, it's the ultimate betrayal.

[teh b0lly!!1]

i mean, facts are facts, billy launched his ass to superstardom and now james never has to work again. as much as james was an integral part of sp, he would have never made it on his own

i think what drives bill so mad is just how apathetic james is to this whole thing.
which doesn't mean james really is apathetic, just that he doesn't have the mental capacity to deal with all that stuff, and being such an undercommunicator it just seems like apathy

it really is kind of infuriating to continue wallowing in what happened in the past and seeing the other side just ignore it completely.

[Trotskilicious]

i see james as being one of those ultra passive guys that does annoying little things to get back at the bullies like bill that push him around

i mean i think it's just a pretty standard falling out, it's not something to be deciphered and endlessly picked apart

maybe people talk about it so much on here because it's never happened to them personally

i mean my best friend from college and i are pretty pissed off at each other for different reasons, but it's mostly due to misunderstandings, miscommunications, and major lifestyle changes.

[Trotskilicious]

i do think it's unnecessary, but unavoidable in a scorpion & the frog sorta way, for bill to talk about it so much in interviews

[Raskolnikov]

I agree with the "lawsuits" comment early on. Something must have happened between 2004 and 2012 that really chapped BC's hide. In that other thread on here about mellow 2004 BC, in that blog was the first time he ever really outed the story about leaving the Metro w/o saying goodbye - and in that, he still obviously had a soft spot towards him.

And now, 8 years later? He's a "piece of shit"? The "worst human being line"? C'mon. If you're going to make sweeping, character depreciating statements like that, you know it's gonna make the fans wonder what's up.

Really, these statements hurt. The Rolling Stone interview from about 2 years ago where he lambasted all of them still makes me cringe... excerpt here:

By the late nineties, the Pumpkins had been reduced to Corgan plus "two drug addicts and one guy who hated me, and I hated him." The non-drug addict was guitarist James Iha — the only Pumpkin other than Corgan to get songwriting credits on the band's albums. As Corgan tells it, Iha got deep under his skin by acting hostile and then insisting nothing was wrong. Bassist Wretzky — who seemed to be around more for her cool vibe and good taste than any particular musical talent — had already left the band by the time Corgan broke it up. He now wishes he'd handled the whole thing differently. "Rather than break up the band, what I should have done is chuck James out," Corgan says. "I should have just said to Jimmy [Chamberlin], 'You go to rehab, and we'll continue, and James, get the fuck out of here.' Instead, I fell on my sword for James, for what I thought was a friend." ("In our band there were always four divergent opinions and perspectives," Iha says in an e-mail. "I choose to remember the good times.")

(From: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/ne...#ixzz1yXiPuxM4)

The stark difference between BC's mean comments and James' Switzerland-esque reply is absolutely painful. Makes me cringe to see that in print.

I guess what sucks is that in my teenage brain, Billy and James were friends. On stage they bordered on comedy duo at spots, and their interplay in interviews was great. And with each comment like this one, the prospect of a reunion gets dimmer and dimmer and dimmer.

[Trotskilicious]

passive aggressive people tend to have that slow burn annoying factor

like you can be good friends with them at first but as your relationship goes on they start to drive one absolutely insane, because one starts to become more attuned to their little passive aggressive habits, well, like this one that my roommate is guilty of too and drives me batshit:

Originally Posted by wat

Iha got deep under his skin by acting hostile and then insisting nothing was wrong.

[BurtSampson]

I'll tell you what happened between 2004 and 2012 Billy. He tried to revive his legacy and it blew up in his face in massive fashion and he projects his bitterness on his old band. That said, I don't doubt that James was a passive aggressive dick.

[iPumpkin]

Originally Posted by Sonic Johnny

the chord progression in Soma and one badass Cure cover

B Em G

Am C G F

Groundbreaking stuff.

[john's ego]

Originally Posted by iPumpkin

B Em G

Am C G F

Groundbreaking stuff.

if those chords sound right to you, you are tonedeaf.

[Trotskilicious]

i bet james is one of those guys that when you're like

"Hey man you want to go out? What do you think?"

"Awesome, so want to meet at Bar X?"

"Bar X? Really...I mean, if you want to, I guess?"

"Well where do you wanna go?"

"I dunno, whatever."

"How about Destination Y?"

"Eh...I mean if you want to...I guess."

asklal;kdl;kajdl'ajkd;lakjd;oakldjf;asda

[emilem]

i think billy is just freaking out because he's pissed at reunion never working out. people don;t really give a shit about his band anymore. i used to play with a bass player who was good and all, we had a laugh here and there, but he was just passive agressive and hostile and it eventually built up into this huge frustration that drove us away and we don't keep contact and i'm sure we both have no nice things to say about eachother even though nothing really went down. at one moment he just stopped showing up, never clearing the air. stuff like that happens.

i never let him use his songs (and boy, he had plenty) for our (my) band so i kinda get similar vibe, although i grew up a lot more in last 5 years than billy did in last 20 i guess.

[subzero]

[pale_princess]

Originally Posted by Reyngel

Billy blames and trashes James because after James left, that's when everyone started hating his music. Billy can't stand people claiming that James was the reason the Pumpkins were successful. Every time an interviewer or fan brings up James' contributions, Billy has to make sure that the world knows that James didn't do shit for the band. Basically, Billy uses the ghost of James as the crutch argument for why people can't get over liking older SP songs versus the newer, shittier stuff.

Billy knows James is never coming back because James got fed up with Billy's horse shit back in 1999. But to keep appearances up, James agreed to one more album and a final tour.

Howard Stern hit the nail on the head: maybe it's not the fault of everyone else, but rather it's that Billy is way too difficult to have a relationship with?

Say what you want about James, but two things are clear:

1: James has never said a bad word about Billy since the final show in 2000. If James was such an awful person; he sure has a kind way of showing it.

2: Billy has alienated every person he's ever befriended, worked with or dated. Seems to me that if everyone else is wrong and Billy is right, then it's probably the other way around.

Originally Posted by BurtSampson

I'll tell you what happened between 2004 and 2012 Billy. He tried to revive his legacy and it blew up in his face in massive fashion and he projects his bitterness on his old band.

[themadcaplaughs]

It's obvious from the behavior of both of them that they were not getting along. I doubt that the destruction of their relationship was all billy's fault. the band was dysfunctional. everybody in the band was/is dysfunctional. James is not an innocent victim. he was there with the rest of them, making dumb ass decisions, doing stupid things, blowing up one of the best bands that ever existed

I've always been of the opinion that Billy and James were probably equally responsible for the demise of the old band, but at least James has had the decency to not turn it into tabloid drama like Billy. I can guarantee that Billy just does this ti get some kind of rise from Iha, and cause James to say something mean and bitter, just so Billy can wave his flag and say "see, James was always an asshole."

Fact is, the dudes met in 1987 with no real bond or common ground other than they wanted to start a band and had vague similarities in musical taste. 12 years later, they have nothing in common. One tried to milk his fame for everything it was worth, while creating a persona to project on the public, while James seems like an Izzy Stradlin type: never completely comfortable with the massive fame of the band even if he sought it out.

[hafsteinn]

Didnt he start a supergroup with hanson, actively seek out big bands to play live with? Hardly the hermit that hates publicity and only lives for creating avant garde music.