I have somewhat of an apology to make (or, Calling Sleeper to this thread)

[Trotskilicious]

Well i wasn't saying that not being feminist is desirable or that your ethos is negative and that the opposing ethos is less dogmatic/inflexible.

[null123]

Looks like you weren't saying anything at all.

[Trotskilicious]

mostly what i'm getting at is that you have defined feminism for yourself and anyone outside of that definition is wrong, which is very much a quasi-religious approach.

[Trotskilicious]

the sky is blue can be proved with mathematics and science, anything in the social sciences is a belief system

[duovamp]

trotskilicious: he's trolling you specifically john

[null123]

My point was that the mainstream understanding of what feminism is is taken to be practically a scientific fact by lefty dudes.

[Trotskilicious]

well see there you go again assuming what i think you think is mainstream feminism, whatever that means to you

[john's ego]

i'm just puzzled as to how you think it's proper to tell a woman how she should feel about being oppressed.

[Trotskilicious]

you know what just go ahead and tell me what i think

[null123]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

mostly what i'm getting at is that you have defined feminism for yourself and anyone outside of that definition is wrong, which is very much a quasi-religious approach.

I haven't defined anyone out of feminism. I accept that that word has become extremely watered down to the point that it's completely innocuous. I claim the label radical feminist though, which still means something. It's not dogmatic to wish words to have meanings. For example, is it dogmatic to define consumerist democrat types out of socialism? No, it's called preserving the integrity of the movement. If socialism and capitalism become one, socialism ceases to exist.

[Trotskilicious]

i'm sure i was a major player in sexist chat just now to you (john ******) as well even though all i did was talk about taco bell and tell duo to shut the fuck up

[john's ego]

like i get in these conversations with you all the time, but if a woman comes up and points out that i'm misunderstanding something, i'm going to take her word for it on the basis of the fact that she's a woman. not call her views inflexible and dogmatic because they're different than mine.

it's just weird to me.

[Trotskilicious]

i'm not sure what you're talking about all i said was that charmbag is inflexible in her philosophy and approaches it in the same way that religious types do, where she's right and everyone else is wrong and there's no middle ground.

which is the same thing you do, especially when you tell me what i think

[null123]

I do operate on the premise that some things are true and some things are false. Many postmodernist types find that pretty distressing.

[Trotskilicious]

i'm very post-modernist

[null123]

Cause that's just, like, my opinion, man.

[Trotskilicious]

i respect it far more than anyone telling me there's an invisible sky man who made rules we have to follow to be granted access to afterlife's vip club

[john's ego]

i have a hard time imagining you telling a black person they should be more "flexible" and less "dogmatic" about their views on race relations, and i'm not sure why it'd be different.

i mean correct me if i'm wrong in assuming you wouldn't say that to a black guy.

[null123]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

i respect it far more than anyone telling me there's an invisible sky man who made rules we have to follow to be granted access to afterlife's vip club

That's very generous of you.

I'm getting more and more comfortable with the idea of non existence as these arguments here drone on
Just seems like bliss
Hopefully my now daily excessive drinking gives me early Alzheimer's

[exactlythesame]

whoa whoa whoa, everyone should just simmer down here a second

[Trotskilicious]

i mean basically even when i seem like i think i'm right it's from a perspective that it doesn't even matter if i'm right or not my value system is useful to me, and that's why I believe it.

i'm a fan of rorty

I can't read anything without feeling like I'm being yelled at even if it int directed at me and even if I agree with it
Its all exhausting
I don't feel like the party king anymore

[duovamp]

is is
that that

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by john's ego

i have a hard time imagining you telling a black person they should be more "flexible" and less "dogmatic" about their views on race relations, and i'm not sure why it'd be different.

i mean correct me if i'm wrong in assuming you wouldn't say that to a black guy.

most of the black people i've known can differentiate conscious, deliberate racism with the kind of background stuff that you shouldn't judge people harshly for. For example, is casting all the avengers as white people deliberately racist or is it just a product of white culture being thoughtless and self-involved? Is SSS saying all Nepalis are wonderful and nice and caring really "racist" or just a product of some daft kid trying as hard as he can not to be the racist post colonial western tourist and still failing?

it's like how eulogy calls everyone that doesn't like gay marriage a homophobe and thinks it's appropriate to "de-friend" them on facebook. I dunno, maybe you should try and preach the cause to the fence sitters. All people who think banning gay marrage are wrong but they also aren't all evil homophobes that only have hate in their heart.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

I do operate on the premise that some things are true and some things are false. Many postmodernist types find that pretty distressing.

i'm sure this is tempered with the understanding that moral relativity exists on certain (perhaps most) subjects

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

most of the black people i've known can differentiate conscious, deliberate racism with the kind of background stuff that you shouldn't judge people harshly for. For example, is casting all the avengers as white people deliberately racist or is it just a product of white culture being thoughtless and self-involved? Is SSS saying all Nepalis are wonderful and nice and caring really "racist" or just a product of some daft kid trying as hard as he can not to be the racist post colonial western tourist and still failing?

it's like how eulogy calls everyone that doesn't like gay marriage a homophobe and thinks it's appropriate to "de-friend" them on facebook. I dunno, maybe you should try and preach the cause to the fence sitters. All people who think banning gay marrage are wrong but they also aren't all evil homophobes that only have hate in their heart.

that's kind of a jump in subjects, but the victim role being defined by the victim alone can definitely be a slippery slope

[null123]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

i'm sure this is tempered with the understanding that moral relativity exists on certain (perhaps most) subjects

I don't think in terms of morals

[john's ego]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

i mean basically even when i seem like i think i'm right it's from a perspective that it doesn't even matter if i'm right or not my value system is useful to me, and that's why I believe it.

i'm a fan of rorty

i mean really just understand this. you're oppressed for a lot of reasons. your weight. and your mental conditions which count as a disability. you experience oppression in a superficial and ableist society. you get irritated when fat and depressed people are totally misrepresented in media, and you'd be rightfully insulted if a skinny, blissfully content person told you how you should feel about life. and they will never know your experience unless they become fat or depressed.

when i was first told that by virtue of the fact that i'm a man, i would never understand what it's like to be a woman in this patriarchal society, i got offended. like, it was some leftist badge of honor that i would never earn, or something. but then i just learned to not be a dick about it.

i'm not saying i'm fully enlightened. it's a process. but humility is a big part of it.

[Trotskilicious]

i don't think i'm being a dick by saying "be less inflexible and just be groovy."