I have somewhat of an apology to make (or, Calling Sleeper to this thread)

[redbreegull]

This thread reminds once, I was writing this professor I had a really great review on ratemyprofessors.com, and there was this one review that went like:

"Professor So and So is one of the smartest men I have ever met. Do not take his class. Before this semester I was devoutly religious, but then he convinced me there is no God and now my life is ruined."

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by reprise85

almost anything lost or over involves some kind of grief, however minor

like maybe you dont grieve the loss of it but you grieve the time you lost believing it, ya dig?

yeah, but that's not what he's saying. You're talking about regret. I've spoken with many people who've said this. They grieve as if an actual person died. Like they've suffered some horrible loss.

I've never understood people saying shit like that about religion. Maybe it's because I came to that realization in my teens, and I haven't devoted my life to intentionally remaining ignorant about the world. Even when I was a kid I don't think I ever really bought into it 100%. I don't get it and I never will. What is there to grieve for?

when I admitted to myself I was an atheist I felt like the world opened up. Like I went from a tiny little stale, restrictive perspective to an amazing, huge, interesting world. Something so much bigger and better than any religion could ever provide.

[reprise85]

the only thing i can compare it to is "losing" my addiction, and i guess i did grieve over it for some time - it was my partner in life, and we could no longer be lovers (lol cheese fest i know)

religion was never part of my life growing up. i was seriously surprised to find out my mom believed in god. somehow it came up once and she asked me and i was like... no... and she freaked out a little. this was before she became all jesus-y. i must have been like 13.

seriously glad it was a non-issue for me. good on all you that got brainwashed for getting out of it.

i have a friend (well, my longtime friend's sister) who is a jew for jesus (and a lesbian). figure that one out.

[john's ego]

i still think of religion as a crutch, but as of late i'm about as likely to make fun of religious people as i am to make fun of people who need to walk on crutches. so if someone needs to supplant their substance abuse problem with weekly bible study, then really who gives a shit.

[reprise85]

the woman i live with is a devout christian but she's never so much as brought it up except in practical cases (if it's raining bad can you pick me up after church, etc). i like people like that. i've known some really great middle-aged christians who are extremely non-judgmental and genuinely great people. i do my best not to judge but fail sometimes.

it's really hard not to laugh in the face of scientologists though

[D.]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

yeah, but that's not what he's saying. You're talking about regret. I've spoken with many people who've said this. They grieve as if an actual person died. Like they've suffered some horrible loss.

I've never understood people saying shit like that about religion. Maybe it's because I came to that realization in my teens, and I haven't devoted my life to intentionally remaining ignorant about the world. Even when I was a kid I don't think I ever really bought into it 100%. I don't get it and I never will. What is there to grieve for?

when I admitted to myself I was an atheist I felt like the world opened up. Like I went from a tiny little stale, restrictive perspective to an amazing, huge, interesting world. Something so much bigger and better than any religion could ever provide.

"grieving process" is actually pretty apt, especially for those who were raised in a cult like I was. For the first 18 years of my life (until I moved out) I was in church three times a week, sometimes more, getting it drilled into my head that there is only one true way to Heaven and those who don't believe this exact way were going to hell: Jews, Catholics, Mormons, Presbyterians, LSD, gays, feminists, anyone who was not a Born-Again Christian. Hell. Fire. It is ingrained in every facet of one's life.
We were taught to look at non-believers with pity. Going to the movies was evil, anything with a drumbeat in the music was evil, women wearing pants was evil and evidence of a "backslider" or a heathen. We went door-to-door bothering people with religion because it was up to us to witness to as many people as possible. If a family we knew didn't believe our narrow view of Christianity, they weren't so much shunned but they were kept at bay. I never made proper "friends" with my extended family in California because they're mostly "non-denominational" Christians.

What else? Women were to go to a specific Bible college out in Hammond, Indiana to prepare to be housewives and/or Sunday School teachers. Men went to learn how to be heads of households and preachers.

It was this environment I was raised to love and cherish and it has taken me years to get it out of my system. I still feel guilt when I'm around my parents, immense guilty, even though they don't really say anything about it anymore. Just positing questions to them that I have does not go over well.

[D.]

At this point I'm simply non-religious. I don't care one way or the other because all anyone knows is that we live one life (a life that can last ten years or ten decades) and, after that, it's over.
I don't have time to live my life scared. I have a daughter and I never, ever want to make her feel ashamed or guilty or that she could ever make me not love her.

It is a grieving process because it feels like a tremendous loss; I'm somewhere in between feeling ecstatic and free and also like there's an old friend that died.

[Dogfighter28]

i told you so

and welcome to the club

[redbreegull]

also this thread makes me very grateful I was not ingrained with sky man bullshit (can we still say sky man or did we decide that it is offensive?)

the significant other was raised in a moderately hardcore catholic family. She says she came to the realization that it's all made up in her early teen years, but has decided she will never as long as she lives tell her family because she is afraid it would ruin her mom's life. So every time she goes home she "becomes" Catholic. It's really sad to me that anyone can get so wrapped up in their beliefs that it would actually be the worst thing that ever happened to him/her if his/her offspring didn't want to live life the same way. It also makes me realize how discriminated against atheists are. It's not an open, institutionalized prejudice. It's more subtle than bigotry towards women, or black people, or Muslims, or Mormons, but it is insidious. How many people are there in this country who do not believe in their religion, but pretend to ascribe to it because of social pressure?

[Eulogy]

your SO needs to get the fuck over it and live her life

it's as bad as being a closeted gay. as understandable, sure. but also as bad.

[Future Boy]

didnt you say you attend mass when you're home? I swear there was some discussion about your uncle doing it or something.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Future Boy

didnt you say you attend mass when you're home? I swear there was some discussion about your uncle doing it or something.

my uncle does it when i do christmas at my grandparents'. it's literally just family (parents, grandparents, aunt, cousins, gayne walker).

everyone knows my stance on it. he apparently asked my mom if it would make me too uncomfortable, and she didn't really know what to say.

if he asks me i will tell him that it does. it's not some secret i'm keeping.

i don't go to mass. sometimes it comes to me and i sip my whiskey and deal with it quietly.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

your SO needs to get the fuck over it and live her life

it's as bad as being a closeted gay. as understandable, sure. but also as bad.

I agree but she just doesn't have the heart to tell her family she doesn't believe in Catholicism. Her mom is an extremely kind, loving, warm person, which makes it that much worse, because it's easier to envision people of that ilk as being cold, insane, fire and brimstone nuts who don't act like regular people. I don't think she will ever openly come out as a non-believer. I mean the pressure is so great she has laid out that if we get married it must be in a Catholic Church or else her parents would disown her.

[Eulogy]

well then fuck her family

they sound like assholes. if they would disown their daughter then they aren't that warm and kind.

[Future Boy]

its just seems to me like she does what she needs to do to keep the peace with her mother, dont think its much different than you doing what you do for the same reason.

[Future Boy]

oh ok, tell her thats pretty stupid

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Future Boy

its just seems to me like she does what she needs to do to keep the peace with her mother, dont think its much different than you doing what you do for the same reason.

no, because i am an out non-catholic. i don't pretend to believe in any of it. she is. huge difference.

[reprise85]

the thing is, who knows if they would disown her. when it comes down to it, how many of these types disown their atheist/other believing kids?

i think at some point for some people honesty is better than deception - because she is deceiving her parents - it is not up to her how her parents react. i'm sure it's terrifying to her to imagine, but to say she'll never ever do it is kinda premature don't you think?

[reprise85]

i mean we are all adults and free to be our own people and THANK FUCK FOR THAT

[Future Boy]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

no, because i am an out non-catholic. i don't pretend to believe in any of it. she is. huge difference.

granparents know this and they dont say anything about you taking in communion? Besides, I was under the impression that all she did was go to mass now and then, which really isnt much different than what you do. I see now that its more than that.

Her parents are stupid. Hell my dads severe and he'd never go that far.

[dean_r_koontz]

isn't turning a deeply religious person into an atheist a form of gentle rape rgb? fucking someone up with some truth?

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by reprise85

the thing is, who knows if they would disown her. when it comes down to it, how many of these types disown their atheist/other believing kids?

i think at some point for some people honesty is better than deception - because she is deceiving her parents - it is not up to her how her parents react. i'm sure it's terrifying to her to imagine, but to say she'll never ever do it is kinda premature don't you think?

no, you don't know her family. First of all her father is insane, as in actually needs mental help off his rocker bipolar. She had a very bad relationship with him growing up and has a serious complex about winning his approval. Her mom couldn't possibly be a nicer human being, but it would actually be the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to her if one of her children didn't believe in the Church. I agree with you guys in that I think this is a terrible way to live your life, but I cannot imagine her coming out to her parents. She has suggested to me several times that if we are going to be a permanent thing we should just co-habitate and never marry to spite her father, which I dunno... I guess might be some glimmer of her asserting her identity. She's also bisexual and despises the GOP, which are also things which would cause major turmoil if revealed at home.

I feel like I am giving you guys this image of her as a really unhealthy, closeted person, so I feel the need to say that she is one of the most well balanced, vivacious, engaging people I have ever met. She's a real free spirit and a free thinker, it's just that unfortunately she has some bad home issues

[reprise85]

I see. Well, she's in her early 20's, yes? I'm just saying, shit changes as you grow older and never say never. There's plenty of shit people do that they thought they never could. And do her parents have other kids? They're gonna have to learn to deal with it somehow when their perfect porcelain children get surface cracks.

[Mooney]

Originally Posted by Order 66

if we came from monkeys then why arent monkeys coming out of us

if we evolved from monkeys and black people still look like monkeys, are you saying that black people haven't evolved? anyone who believes in evolution is racist.

[Mooney]

(that was a paraphrase of a tweet that i couldn't find)

[reprise85]

i heard a variation on that when i lived in louisiana. something like:

"if we came from apes how come we don't never see an ape turn into a human???!?"

said with all sincerity. by an 75ish year old teacher.

she was also fond of saying she wasn't racist and even her black students told her that

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by reprise85

I see. Well, she's in her early 20's, yes? I'm just saying, shit changes as you grow older and never say never. There's plenty of shit people do that they thought they never could. And do her parents have other kids? They're gonna have to learn to deal with it somehow when their perfect porcelain children get surface cracks.

well, maybe. a lot would have to change in her life

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Future Boy

granparents know this and they dont say anything about you taking in communion? Besides, I was under the impression that all she did was go to mass now and then, which really isnt much different than what you do. I see now that its more than that.

Her parents are stupid. Hell my dads severe and he'd never go that far.

they know my boyfriend and don't take issue with me taking communion along with my agnostic sister and two atheist cousins (and my boyfriend).

it's just a thing that happens as a family. no one thinks i'm a practicing catholic, and that is an important distinction. they do it because they want to do it. but i do get your point, and i've already said that i will not be present for it again. it honestly made me a lot more uncomfortable than i thought it would (we don't have christmas there every year.. so this was the first time in a few years, and i hadn't been confronted with it in a while). so.

[Travis Meeks]

Wait a second here, when did Eulogy become gay? How the heck did I miss this?

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

no, you don't know her family. First of all her father is insane, as in actually needs mental help off his rocker bipolar. She had a very bad relationship with him growing up and has a serious complex about winning his approval. Her mom couldn't possibly be a nicer human being, but it would actually be the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to her if one of her children didn't believe in the Church. I agree with you guys in that I think this is a terrible way to live your life, but I cannot imagine her coming out to her parents. She has suggested to me several times that if we are going to be a permanent thing we should just co-habitate and never marry to spite her father, which I dunno... I guess might be some glimmer of her asserting her identity. She's also bisexual and despises the GOP, which are also things which would cause major turmoil if revealed at home.

I feel like I am giving you guys this image of her as a really unhealthy, closeted person, so I feel the need to say that she is one of the most well balanced, vivacious, engaging people I have ever met. She's a real free spirit and a free thinker, it's just that unfortunately she has some bad home issues

I really do empathize (sympathize?) with all of this, but her being a closeted bisexual nonbeliever does damage to every other non-heterosexual nonbeliever. She's old enough. If she's financially dependent, I get it. Otherwise, she needs to be honest. She will never be happy.