What are the odds that 28if is going to come back to the board...

[hnibos]

And that space travel isn't possible.

[duovamp]

Exactly. Those guys put America on the Moon. What've they done for me lately? Nothing.


Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go troll more parts of the Internet with my cell phone.

[duovamp]

<----- Science is not responsible for that. That is a divine work of art from our Creator.

[killtrocity]

Originally Posted by dudehitscar

uh no. The right to believe in magic is part of a bigger right that is the cornerstone of a civilized and fair society.


that's it I'm out of this thread.

If you don't believe in magic and the only reason is that some authority figure or societal norm told you that science is truth, and you blindly believe this without performing any investigation or rational thought process of your own, then you might as well believe in magic, because you hold that belief in science for reasons that are as dogmatic as the belief in magic. Belief in science based on experimentation and reproduction of an event is still faith, the difference being that it is rational. Rational faith requires freedom to make your own decision and come to your own conclusion based on what is logical. Irrational faith requires only blind allegiance to authority or simply ignorance, or stupidity, and therefore the "right to believe in magic" must exist or else there would be no right to hold a rational faith. So yes, the right to believe in magic must exist or else there would be no way of gauging whether a belief, scientific or otherwise, was rational. Without a right to believe, all matters of interpretation are based on authority.

[killtrocity]

Originally Posted by duovamp

I wanted to start a conversation about your idea of rights, thst's all. We can do that later or never. Whatevs. Basically we had the right to discriminate against black people 50 or 60 years ago, but not now. So the idea of a right is basically some societal norm, which means it's nothing concrete and is completely local to the US or modernity.

What I'm saying is the right to believe in magic is retarded and destructive.

The right to discriminate is different than the right to believe in magic because it involves institutional systems of oppression which are in most cases totally observable. You can concretely determine what factors influence socioeconomic status, and obviously race is tied to this. You cannot concretely say whether hydrogen and oxygen atoms bond to form water because of incontrovertible properties of our universe, or because they choose to bond to each other because it is moral to do so, or because there is some "magical" property of subatomic particles that we cannot yet rationalize. At some point you have to make a rational leap of faith, but in the case of institutional discrimination the leap is not nearly so great as the leap required to explain quantum mechanics.

[killtrocity]

Originally Posted by hnibos

And that space travel isn't possible.

This is an interesting point. Today, the idea of interplanetary space travel is literally magical. The implications of our current understanding of basic physics are that it would take at least hundreds of years for a vessel to travel to the nearest extrasolar system, assuming the vehicle is traveling near the speed of light, which is nowhere close to being possible (at present time). It is totally accurate to say that the belief in extrasolar travel is equivalent to a belief in magic and therefore is an irrational faith. (I know you were just talking about going to the moon, but it got me thinking). If scientific understanding 1000 years in the future accounts for some new understanding of the way the universe functions which allows for some exploitation or loophole in physics and therefore enables interplanetary travel, then the belief will no longer be "magical". But today the notion is strictly an irrational one, because there is no evidence to the contrary. That does not mean the "magical act" is impossible, because honestly we do not know. We can only make the best leap of rational faith based on the resources and evidence presently available to us.


I guess my point is that the idea of "magic" is a synonym for "irrational faith", and that what qualifies as "magic" or irrational thought is inherently going to change based on the time period, since whether a thought is rational or not depends entirely on logic and therefore evidence (whether an event is repeatable given the same conditions), and the body of evidence changes over time, sometimes conflicting with ideas which were previously held to be rational; the world is flat, the world is the center of the universe, human flight is impossible, benzene is shaped like a prism... I actually would go even further and say that it is ignorant to assume that our current body of evidence, in terms of how the universe functions, is not going to change much over the next 1000 years. But that doesn't change the fact that a belief in extrasolar travel is currently, by definition, a belief in magic.

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by killtrocity

You cannot concretely say whether hydrogen and oxygen atoms bond to form water because of incontrovertible properties of our universe, or because they choose to bond to each other because it is moral to do so, or because there is some "magical" property of subatomic particles that we cannot yet rationalize. At some point you have to make a rational leap of faith, but in the case of institutional discrimination the leap is not nearly so great as the leap required to explain quantum mechanics.

Okay and the entire universe you know to be real could just be the invention of your insane mind and you can never actually know reality.

-or-

You can test and predict shit. Because if you can derive equations from the way one thing works, you can apply it to other things, and see if it holds true. You don't really have any basic background in science, do you?

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

one is a mythical creature

they are the fighting irish not the fighting leprechauns, even the name is offensive and derogatory. Because u no the irish are always drunk an fiting lol

besides the leprechaun was used a frequent slur against the irish

and before anyone jumps to conclusions i'm perfectly aware that i do not suffer from any sort of systemic oppression on account of my ethnic heritage (my mental illness on the other hand...) but that's because it was ground under the wheels of american white anglo saxon protestant culture, re-appropriated and now it's just kind of a joke.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

again, you're missing the point entirely.

i don't think i am, you think systemically oppressed minority groups should be respected, protected and coddled to but you're perfectly ok with mocking everyone else that you don't think is systemically oppressed and all i'm trying to say is that you shouldn't really mock anyone's culture if you don't like it, and that would be just and not hypocritical

i think the key flaw in your thinking is how i mentioned people culturally cling to religion because it's what is important to their culture and you immediately jumped to "but then they foist it on everyone else"

first of all not all religious people want to make it your business
second of all you consistently foist your own beliefs and value judgement on others

i'm also not saying i'm any better but i don't get on soap boxes about hipsters wearing indian feather bonnets at music festivals because it really really doesn't matter, especially if you consider the broad scope of history

also i'd like to point out that probably the vast majority of Catholics are systemically oppressed non whites.

[Trotskilicious]

also race war is a diversion for class war

workers of the world unite!!!

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

i don't think i am, you think systemically oppressed minority groups should be respected, protected and coddled to but you're perfectly ok with mocking everyone else that you don't think is systemically oppressed and all i'm trying to say is that you shouldn't really mock anyone's culture if you don't like it, and that would be just and not hypocritical

i think the key flaw in your thinking is how i mentioned people culturally cling to religion because it's what is important to their culture and you immediately jumped to "but then they foist it on everyone else"

first of all not all religious people want to make it your business
second of all you consistently foist your own beliefs and value judgement on others

do i try to legislatively and constitutionally ensure that they have lesser rights than i do?

no.

this is how you continue to miss the point. i already said i don't have a problem with religious people who don't do what i'm talking about.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

cousin marriage is legal in most states, i think

or maybe not most. but a bunch.

all of the south but texas lets you marry your first cousin

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

do i try to legislatively and constitutionally ensure that they have lesser rights than i do?

no.

this is how you continue to miss the point. i already said i don't have a problem with religious people who don't do what i'm talking about.

what where is this coming from

[Trotskilicious]

i thought we were talking about how HORRIBLE it is that WHITE PEOPLE wear SACRED HATS

[Trotskilicious]

also i personally do think the ND leprechaun and chief wahoo are both obnoxious relics of racist culture

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

they are the fighting irish not the fighting leprechauns, even the name is offensive and derogatory. Because u no the irish are always drunk an fiting lol

it wasn't meant to convey fist fighting between irish people (which i realize may be seen as at odds with the logo).

In narrow, little New England, it began as a slur -- a term of opprobrium. But we took it up and made of it a badge of honor -- a symbol of fidelity and courage to everyone who suffers from discrimination; to everyone who has an uphill fight for the elemental decencies, and the basic Christian principles woven into the texture of our nation. Preserving this tradition, and this meaning of Irish at Notre Dame does honor to everyone of us. It explains why Lewinski belongs here; why Alessandrini is the Irish leader; why Schmaltz belongs here; why Bertrand, and Moreau, Van Dyke, and Larson feel at home here as much as do Leahy and O’Brien.

[Trotskilicious]

oh please

[Trotskilicious]

you know i'm sure florida state has a similar explanation of why a white boy rides around on a pony with a spear

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

what where is this coming from

you're not aware of all the constitutional amendments in states banning gay marriage because god says marriage has to be between one man and one woman?

or that the most prominent funders of prop 8 were mormons? or that the conference of catholic bishops and knights of columbus raised shittons of money for it?

i know you don't think it's a big deal but it's a perfect example of what i'm talking about. people's religion also dictates education policy and women's health issues and sex education and on and on and on

is this news?

edit: this is in response to you saying that i hoist my beliefs onto people in the same way religious people do. i absolutely do not. i don't want to take away mormons' right to get fucking married. jesus christ.

[Trotskilicious]

i was never talking about that

[Trotskilicious]

seriously this is about the OUTRAGE at WHITE PEOPLE wearing SACRED HATS at COACHELLA!!!!!!

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

it wasn't meant to convey fist fighting between irish people (which i realize may be seen as at odds with the logo).

So later down the road we can have the Louisiana Thieving Niggers and that'd be cool?

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

you know i'm sure florida state has a similar explanation of why a white boy rides around on a pony with a spear

i mean, ok

i'm not exactly the biggest defender of that institution anyway.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by duovamp

So later down the road we can have the Louisiana Thieving Niggers and that'd be cool?

i think that is pretty clearly different.

but i don't really care to defend it so sure it's exactly the same as a team being called the "niggers."

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

seriously this is about the OUTRAGE at WHITE PEOPLE wearing SACRED HATS at COACHELLA!!!!!!

I've got an outraging boner for those sacred hats on WhoamP girl.

[duovamp]

And by hats I mean tits.

[Trotskilicious]

and i'm like

so if i go as a catholic priest for halloween, that would outrage my catholic friends but most of you wouldn't care, the ones that are upset about WHITE PEOPLE!!! WEARING HATS!!!!Q

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

seriously this is about the OUTRAGE at WHITE PEOPLE wearing SACRED HATS at COACHELLA!!!!!!

no, you brought that up. it was about religion and american christianity in particular.

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

but i don't really care to defend it so sure it's exactly the same as a team being called the "niggers."

lol Check and MATE. *dusts off hands*

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

i think that is pretty clearly different.

but i don't really care to defend it so sure it's exactly the same as a team being called the "niggers."

redskins is exactly the same as far as i'm concerned

yet their logo i find to be classy, go figure.