If you're not Native, then don't go to coachella looking like this

[Starla]

Originally Posted by yo soy el mejor

do you like this song, starla?

Yeah... I do I don't know about the regalia being worn casually but it was popular back then too.

[Starla]

Originally Posted by D.

Kinda crazy how absolutely at home I feel at the Royals stadium.

I know what you mean.

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by john's ego

this thread is giving me a hangover.

Worst edit ever btw.

[Trotskilicious]

well that snowballed

[Shallowed]

Okay, I just read this whole thread again and I will admit that this:

Basically for me what it comes down to was that I'm not offended by the Native American headdresses or the chanting, Starla is, and maybe if she put herself in the shoes of the white kids wearing shit that's not their own culture, she could find in herself a reason to find it acceptable.

Is inappropriate wording, but I had completely missed over this part here:

Originally Posted by Starla

The headdress is a symbol of spirituality for a chief in a tribe or medicine person. They didn't go to the craft store, get a piece of cheap material and hot glue a bunch of feathers to it. They earned those feathers over a life time for various spiritual reasons.

I don't even know why I should have to explain this.

as in, in comparison to wearing mockasins or something, which Starla is okay with.

Also I don't know why you don't know why you should have to explain it. It's not exactly common knowledge. I didn't know that. Why should I?

I'll get around to responding to your last post later.

[Shallowed]

I do feel sympathy for you having to put up with being surrounded by something that is offensive to you and your culture for three days, but I still can't understand how the connection can be made between murderers of Native Americans and ostracisers of culture and...

...these kids who for all you and we know, have no connection at all to those murderers and ostracisers at all.

[Fonzie]

Originally Posted by Pasta of Muppet

Going back to what I originally said when I pitched in my two cents, about the white haka thing...

Maybe as a New Zealander I'm simply more comfortable with what little native culture we have left that is ingrained into our society. I can't speak for all New Zealanders obviously but I would guess that it's widely deemed acceptable for a group of white or mostly white people to perform a haka.

For example during the opening ceremony of the Rugby World Cup (ugh) last year, I witnessed a skinny, shirtless white guy climb up on top of one of these bus shelter things and do a bastardised haka and everyone freaking loved it and no-one got all "'scuse me white boy, that's an offensive misappropriation of Maori culture"

it's fucking embarrassing, that's what it is.

As a fellow New Zealander...

[Shallowed]

I agree. He was an attention-seeker and he got it.

[Trotskilicious]

i'd like to know how a white person wearing a head-dress is any different than a white person with dreadlocks

[Starla]

Originally Posted by Pasta of Muppet

...these kids who for all you and we know, have no connection at all to those murderers and ostracisers at all.

It doesn't matter if they do or not.

[Shallowed]

And yet you connect them to it.

[Starla]

Where did I connect them? I never said they are responsible for what took place over a 100 years ago.

[Shallowed]

I beg your pardon, it wasn't you.

Originally Posted by Charmbag

running around dressed up as a racial or cultural stereotype to go see some white bands with your white friends makes you a piece of shit. have some appreciation for your unique position as a privileged white person and recognize that your entire existence, including and especially your ability to wear a war bonnet to Florence and the Machine, represents the spoils of not just past, but present oppression of indigenous people.

[Starla]

It's cool. I don't blame these kids for anything that happened. That's just silly. My only point was that because these things happened in the past.... it would be nice that they are respectful of what the regalia means to natives.

[Shallowed]

Well, I've read through this thread about three times now and despite a few people saying why they think it is disrespectful, I still don't agree that it is disrespectful. It comes across like that to you. That happens. My posts came across to Eulogy as wanting to dictate how people feel about things, that happens too I guess. Obviously it is a much more sensitive thing to you being a Native American* yourself, you are aware about what the thing truly represents and that it is in fact sacred. I don't think it is entirely reasonable to expect everyone else to know that it is sacred either. Isn't that just projecting?

How do you feel about religious symbols being used to mock or parody? Do they have a point? Is it free speech or offensive? I'm not comparing any negative aspect about religion to NAs, nor am I comparing the fact that people mock and parody consciously to people being unknowingly disrespectful. All that I am comparing here is the use of a symbol that does not represent them. (I'm trying to be very careful with my words here)

*How much of your heritage is non-Native, by the way? If it was mentioned in this thread, I missed it.

[john's ego]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

i'd like to know how a white person wearing a head-dress is any different than a white person with dreadlocks

because nappy hair isn't something that any single culture claims dominion over?

[cocksure]

i actually agree with pasta of muppet to some degree. i don't know about the 'harmless' part though

[Shallowed]

Yeah. Not really the word I should have used.

[vixnix]

Isn't she just pointing out that it's not a nice or cool thing to do, to dress up with the feather head dress thing if you are not a Native American? I mean we can all agree to that, seriously what kind of a douchebag does that.

I've been reading the Little House books to my little 6 year old boy and just from them we both understand that not every Native American wears a full head dress like that so wearing one yourself is kind of making a claim about yourself in a way, that you hold a special position in your group or something. It shocks me that people who were born and raised in the U.S.A would know less about Native American cultures than a couple of New Zealanders living in Australia. It's really quite disturbing. They know how to tweet and update their facebook profiles but they don't know that it's offensive to Native Americans to wear a feather head dress thing. Ugh.

You see this is why white Americans are known as the stupidest, most annoying, most vulgar people on the face of the earth, the world over. Because they are real contenders for those titles.

[Sonic Johnny]

this thread is about to blow out to 12 pages after that post.

I'm not even gonna weigh in on this debate.

[dean_r_koontz]

when people come to sweden and wear viking helmets i just go uuuuuuuuurgh.

[Sonic Johnny]

also i'm digging vixnix's assumption that both Pasta and Fonzie are living in Australia. Correct me if i'm wrong guys but are you not both still in New Zealand? And if you *are* over here, where?

[Eulogy]

the point that white kids today aren't personally responsible for what happened in the past is largely irrelevant, isn't it?

it's the same sort of argument i hear when people are trying to say affirmative action is wrong. obviously, two different issues. but some of the same principles apply.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by vixnix

You see this is why white Americans are known as the stupidest, most annoying, most vulgar people on the face of the earth, the world over. Because they are real contenders for those titles.

oh good lord

[Shallowed]

Originally Posted by Sonic Johnny

also i'm digging vixnix's assumption that both Pasta and Fonzie are living in Australia. Correct me if i'm wrong guys but are you not both still in New Zealand? And if you *are* over here, where?

I don't know about Fonzie but I have been in New Zealand for most of my life.

[Shallowed]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

it's the same sort of argument i hear when people are trying to say affirmative action is wrong. obviously, two different issues. but some of the same principles apply.

What are your views on affirmative action?

[duovamp]

You guys are totally ignoring intent. Nobody is wearing these things to insult anybody. They just think they look neat. Nobody is celebrating the destruction of a culture or people by wearing them. There is a difference between wearing ceremonial garb because you like the way it looks and wearing blackface.

I get so damn pissed when people dress as clergy on Halloween!!!

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Pasta of Muppet

What are your views on affirmative action?

it's a good thing.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by duovamp

You guys are totally ignoring intent.

intent isn't really relevant. or at least not the only relevant thing.

the stock apology from racists/homophobes/etc. always includes the line "i didn't intend to hurt anyone" or some variation of it. it doesn't matter.

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

intent isn't really relevant. or at least not the only relevant thing.

the stock apology from racists/homophobes/etc. always includes the line "i didn't intend to hurt anyone" or some variation of it. it doesn't matter.

Intent matters legally, so it should matter here. What they're doing isn't as inconsiderate as walking around speaking broken English and saying "me smokem peace pipe." Why can't other cultures share or enjoy other cultures? I just don't think it's necessarily offensive to dress like that, without exception. There are respectful and disrespectful ways of appreciating a culture, and this isn't a case that is always, always disrespectful, like blackface. These kids could actually legitimately think these costumes look interesting and neat and beautiful without tossing anybody on a cross.

Plus free speech. This isn't hate speech.