Message to MonteLDS

[reprise85]

btw, I don't think you are insane, I think you are indoctrinated and do have sympathy for you. hope that doesn't insult you cause I do MEAN WELL you know, and that's all that matters

[SuckSuckStyle]

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

Back to the article - it's all about choice. We're merely doing something so that they have the option to accept the ordinance in the next life, not forcing it upon them. I really don't see that as disrespectful.

Again - if another faith was doing that for my ancestors, it ultimately wouldn't matter to me, because when ya get right down to it, I believe that my faith teaches correctly what happens when ya die. So to the worm food comment - exactly. If we're totally wrong and there's no God, then who cares what those stupid Mormons think they're doing for our ancestors?

But, hey - if we're right - then it's a pretty thoughtful/Christian act, yeah?

I get this. It's actually kinda cute.

but the question still remains: if someone didn't make the choice to accept it in life, why would would you think they'd accept it after death? as a "hey we told you this was real here's your last chance to join the party or guess where you're going" ?

I just feel like it's kind of insulting. Part of it still seems to me like an unwanted knock on your door. Also, knowing about it while I'm alive sends the message that my spiritual beliefs are wrong. Even if it's out of some twisted compassion, I still see it as disrespectful. Especially if the person you convert was very spiritual. publicly or privately.

this sounds condescending but i'm serious when I ask what's going to stop mormon kids from throwing the church the bird during life knowing that their family will hook them up after they're dead and they'll just deal with it later?

[SlingeroGuitaro]

im pretty sure monte is posing as a lawyer and is alive and well here in austin- shitty green screen and all





and here he is trying to speak spanish. reminds me of peggy hill.

[Starla]

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

To each:

re: The veil thing - We believe that family relationships exist long after this life is over, and as such, there are parts of the afterlife that will involve our family from this one. Without getting into way more afterlife Mormon doctrine than you're interested in hearing about, suffice it to say that she won't be waiting around - there's still work to be done in the afterlife, long before ANYBODY goes through the veil.

re: Missionaries saying stupid things - I did the whole 2 year mission thing and consider myself to be a pretty rational/normal guy. (Again, with the disclaimer that every last one of ya think I'm insane/not normal because I'm Mormon, fully recognize and acknowledge that fact) That said, there are all sorts of 19 year old kids out there spouting off incorrect and downright stupid stuff. Whoever you were talking to definitely falls into that category - the blacks not getting into their heaven thing is total bullshit. As far as the peyote church goes... no right to tell anybody that their faith is incorrect, or full of demons or whatever. It sounds pretty fun to me, surely it's a lot less boring than my church is at times.

I realize not all Mormons are going to believe the same thing. I'm just going based on what I've been told by a few different people. I went to Adam Ondi Ahman many years ago with a friend who was writing a paper, and we met with some interesting folks who was open about the binding ceremonies. One of my issues with some Mormons in general, are the many families that come to the reservations and try to get women to adopt out their babies or small children to them, trying to convince them they shouldn't keep their children. Then they take them off to Utah and indoctrinate them and force them to go to temple. Won't let them learn about their culture and see their families again. This was worse in the 70's - to mid 90's..... now they have a harder time trying to do this, as they've been told they are not welcome on the rez.

When using peyote for seeking vision, or in church, it's not for fun. It's serious and I got really fucking sick one time taking too much peyote. Had a bad vision that came to pass.

[Starla]

Originally Posted by reprise85

Ultimately you are doing this for your own piece of mind, and for my own piece of mind I would be insulted if you baptised one of my dead relatives. I know you disagree and think it's the truth and you're helping your ancestors or mine or whatever but in my mind it is equivilant.

?

If you think this is bad, they went to the Wounded Knee cemetery and did baptisms on all of the dead ancestors there, praying for their souls to be saved. They do this every single year since I can remember.

[Raskolnikov]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

also why was the mormon church the single largest donor to the prop 8 campaign? that's still a sticking point for me and part of the reason why i'm reluctant to look at someone like you, who appears to be reasonable (despite how batshit i find your religion to be), and just be like "oh well if it works for him then alright." but maybe this is just me being overly stubborn.

don't they have any more important shit to worry about?

Huge clarifying point to your first sentence: the church itself wasn't the donor - in fact, they donated zero church money to the campaign. Individual members chose to contribute. I wasn't one of those, despite being a Mormon in California at the time.

As far as the why question - that's a tough one to encapsulate, and I think each person who contributed had different reasons as to why they'd contribute money. Lots I'm sure were doing it because certain leaders of the church (not official statements from the church, just certain folks) encouraged it. Others did it because they agreed with it.

My personal stance on that topic is that it concerns me from a legal standpoint more than anything else. Being far from a lawyer, it only concerns me in the fact that initially, the fact that two folks of the same gender were allowed to marry was the ruling of one judge in one city in a very large state. It was then ruled unconstitutional for him to do that, so it was overturned. Then, Prop 8 was to decide whether or not to let the overturning stay in place - so when folks voted Yes, it was to overturn it. Confusing as hell. But, long story short - it was put to a popular vote, and the Yes voters won... and that was that, 'til recently when the same judge is trying once more to say that Prop 8 wasn't permissible. That weird back and forth is far more my concern than some Fox News esque NO GAY MARRIAGE sorta diatribe.

Personally, I'm far from being anti-gay marriage. The Church's stance on politics is one of strict neutrality, allowing individual members to make up their own minds. That's one aspect of my church that I really appreciate. I'm actually a registered democrat, believe it or not.

Thanks for the concession re: me being reasonable. I honestly appreciate it, and the dialog amongst folks that's been going on in this thread. Figured I'd stand up and say "hey, I'm a Mormon..." and try my best to answer the questions brought up, and correct some stuff.

[Raskolnikov]

Originally Posted by reprise85

btw, I don't think you are insane, I think you are indoctrinated and do have sympathy for you. hope that doesn't insult you cause I do MEAN WELL you know, and that's all that matters

Appreciate it, and the rep. I'm not one to shy away from conversations like this one, so I appreciate it when humanity persists.

And, yeah - I am indoctrinated. I'll admit that. But my faith is mine, man. It goes way beyond that. I didn't walk around North Dakota on my mission in the dead of winter because Mommy and Daddy told me I needed to do it - I did it because I believe what I was sharing with people. I believe that because I've spent hours on my knees coming to these conclusions.

I'm indoctrinated to a point - then I've gotten deep into books that 99% of LDS folks won't ever crack to understand what leaders of our church teach, and align that with what I believe.

Not insulted at all, man. Again - digging this thread. Love how at the core, Netphorians are great. Probably what's kept me coming back here for 13 years.

haha you went on a mission

JW, Mormon, same shit

[Raskolnikov]

Originally Posted by SuckSuckStyle

but the question still remains: if someone didn't make the choice to accept it in life, why would would you think they'd accept it after death? as a "hey we told you this was real here's your last chance to join the party or guess where you're going" ?

this sounds condescending but i'm serious when I ask what's going to stop mormon kids from throwing the church the bird during life knowing that their family will hook them up after they're dead and they'll just deal with it later?

Not consescending at all - in fact, this is something my wife (who's Mormon too, yeah - but wasn't into at all for like 15 years of her 30 years of existence) talk about all the time. And frankly, I really don't have a perfect answer for her/you on the matter.

I guess I see it as a testament to how much we believe that God loves each of us. He throws us opportunities in this life - some more than others (ie: dude who grew up in Utah vs somebody who never heard of our church, period) then he gives us one last chance to accept it in the next life. The best answer I've been able to come up with internally is that by giving everybody that chance, each of us can be judged on an even plain. There's no "Hey, this isn't fair!" when your eternal destination is assigned you.

HAVE YOU HEARD THE GOOD NEWS

hoLY fuck i snorted so many bath salts just now

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

Huge clarifying point to your first sentence: the church itself wasn't the donor - in fact, they donated zero church money to the campaign. Individual members chose to contribute. I wasn't one of those, despite being a Mormon in California at the time.

I guess my "largest donor" stat is off because of this but

"Top officials with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints filed reports today indicating that they donated more than $180,000 in in-kind contributions to Proposition 8, the November ballot initiative that banned same-sex marriage in California.

The contributions included tens of thousands of dollars for expenses such as airline tickets, hotel and restaurant bills and car-rental bills for top church officials such as L. Whitney Clayton, along with $96,849.31 worth of “compensated staff time” for church employees.

The church said the expenditures took place between July 1 and the end of the year. The church’s involvement has been a major issue in the campaign and its aftermath. Individual Mormon families donated millions -- by some estimates more than $20 million -- of their own money to the campaign."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...ficials-w.html

As far as the why question - that's a tough one to encapsulate, and I think each person who contributed had different reasons as to why they'd contribute money. Lots I'm sure were doing it because certain leaders of the church (not official statements from the church, just certain folks) encouraged it. Others did it because they agreed with it.

My personal stance on that topic is that it concerns me from a legal standpoint more than anything else. Being far from a lawyer, it only concerns me in the fact that initially, the fact that two folks of the same gender were allowed to marry was the ruling of one judge in one city in a very large state. It was then ruled unconstitutional for him to do that, so it was overturned. Then, Prop 8 was to decide whether or not to let the overturning stay in place - so when folks voted Yes, it was to overturn it. Confusing as hell. But, long story short - it was put to a popular vote, and the Yes voters won... and that was that, 'til recently when the same judge is trying once more to say that Prop 8 wasn't permissible. That weird back and forth is far more my concern than some Fox News esque NO GAY MARRIAGE sorta diatribe.

You have your facts wrong. The Court ruled it unconstitutional to prohibit gays from marrying via statute, and then California voters voted to take that right away with a Constitutional amendment after the Court had ruled on its Constitutionality. It's really not confusing as all hell.

Timeline:

Statute put in place that says no gay marriage

CA supreme court rules that statute unconstitutional

Voters vote on something they shouldn't be allowed to vote on, which amends the constitution, effectively overruling the CA supreme court

Moves to federal district court, where proposition 8 is ruled unconstitutional. then a 3-judge panel on the 9th circuit held it unconstitutional again. the appeals process is ongoing.


The "weird back and forth" over putting civil rights to a vote. I can assure you that the only strange part of this is the idea that civil rights can be stripped from a minority group by the majority.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 wasn't voted on. The banning of anti-miscegenation laws wasn't voted on. Also I have no idea why any of this is "concerning" to you. ???

Personally, I'm far from being anti-gay marriage. The Church's stance on politics is one of strict neutrality, allowing individual members to make up their own minds. That's one aspect of my church that I really appreciate. I'm actually a registered democrat, believe it or not.

Thanks for the concession re: me being reasonable. I honestly appreciate it, and the dialog amongst folks that's been going on in this thread. Figured I'd stand up and say "hey, I'm a Mormon..." and try my best to answer the questions brought up, and correct some stuff.

thanks for taking time to respond. although the article i quoted above makes it hard to take the "strict neutrality" thing seriously.

i guess at least this guy reads dostoyevsky instead of montes favorite books by rick santorum and "blinking with fists"

[Raskolnikov]

Originally Posted by Starla

I realize not all Mormons are going to believe the same thing. I'm just going based on what I've been told by a few different people. I went to Adam Ondi Ahman many years ago with a friend who was writing a paper, and we met with some interesting folks who was open about the binding ceremonies. One of my issues with some Mormons in general, are the many families that come to the reservations and try to get women to adopt out their babies or small children to them, trying to convince them they shouldn't keep their children. Then they take them off to Utah and indoctrinate them and force them to go to temple. Won't let them learn about their culture and see their families again. This was worse in the 70's - to mid 90's..... now they have a harder time trying to do this, as they've been told they are not welcome on the rez.

When using peyote for seeking vision, or in church, it's not for fun. It's serious and I got really fucking sick one time taking too much peyote. Had a bad vision that came to pass.

Re: Not all of us believing the same thing - you're right, but only to a point. It's a worldwide faith with one unified, core set of doctrines and beliefs that are taught in chapels on Sundays in Utah, Pittsburg, Poland and South Africa. Same deal, different location. But with that comes the fact that you've got a Polish convert of 6 months speaking at one church and a 75 year old 4th generation Utah dude speaking at a different one. Opinions and variations creep into official doctrines.

Re: Native Americans - Interesting stuff, especially to me. While I'm a white guy from California, I got called to serve my 2 year mission in the Dakotas and had the chance to work with a good share of Lakota. Never was I on a res (a Navajo kid I was friends with spent 22 of his 24 months on reservations, though). Sucks that happened - but, really I think that just families going about an adoption the way they wanted to. We believe that Native Americans have a direct connection to our faith in a pretty unique way (in that they're descendants of the people in the Book of Mormon) so some folks feel a special affinity to natives. Glad the rez is shutting them down, though - if it's not going to be done respectfully, it shouldn't at all. I grew a deep affinity for the native american culture after spending 2 years up there working amongst lots of natives. It's beautiful, and awesome.

Re: Peyote - sorry for being callous. Bad form in a crap attempt at being funny. Sounds like a rough experience, which is probably why the missionary made that off-kilter comment.

[Raskolnikov]

Originally Posted by Graveflower

JW, Mormon, same shit

Couldn't disagree anymore, man. That's like saying that catholics and muslims are the "same shit". Got the chance to attend some Jehovah's Witness services and speak extensively with some of them.

i'm just trying to amuse myself man
i'd rather have fun with this all than engage in actual debate
i mean i pretty much find every church to have repugnant practices i don't regard any of them as better or worse and i do separate some of the followers from uh, the worse followers and the actual churches

besides i'm a complete idiot and recognize that every time i speak i do a disservice to atheists and agnostics myself

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

We believe that Native Americans have a direct connection to our faith in a pretty unique way (in that they're descendants of the people in the Book of Mormon)

weren't they the bad guys in the story though? and that's why they have dark skin, according to the book?

i mean

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamanite

like

what

to be fair the native americans were the bad guys to pretty much every group of white people that came over here

again i havent read the thread
i should stop only trying to entertain myself and actually engage in normal human contact one day

i thought eulogy would like my achewood post at least though
that one wasn't just for my own benefit

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Graveflower

i thought eulogy would like my achewood post at least though

i did! there was just a burst of new posts so i didn't see it : (

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by reprise85

That article clearly says not doing it for holocaust jews is out of respect. I'd like that same respect, please, and also that for my family - both those who died in concentration camps and those who were in America. What's the difference? Well, I'm assuming it is a PR thing because holocaust survivors are a big group with a lot of support that got on the Mormons for doing this hugely disrespectful thing. It should apply to everyone else too - how do you justify this difference? Why the different standards?

hey Rask can you address this please?

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

Appreciate it, and the rep. I'm not one to shy away from conversations like this one, so I appreciate it when humanity persists.

And, yeah - I am indoctrinated. I'll admit that. But my faith is mine, man. It goes way beyond that. I didn't walk around North Dakota on my mission in the dead of winter because Mommy and Daddy told me I needed to do it - I did it because I believe what I was sharing with people. I believe that because I've spent hours on my knees coming to these conclusions.

Not insulted at all, man. Again - digging this thread. Love how at the core, Netphorians are great. Probably what's kept me coming back here for 13 years.

You were born into a Mormon family though, right? What if your family had been Roman Catholic... do you really think that wouldn't feel right to you on your knees or in your heart/soul etc? Ultimately 1. we believe what we're told as children and 2. there really is not a large difference between all of these religions, not really

[reprise85]

I mean, this is all indoctrinated into you while you are pre-verbal and is now part of your homeostasis. It has a meta-cognitive effect on all of your mental processes and you are not in control of it and perhaps are not aware. We all have these things, and our brains like to trick us and make us think we have open minds, but it's hard to undo or even look at these thoughts realistically without bias. Perhaps impossible.

I'm sure you feel it in your heart and really believe it and I am glad for you, but you can't really underestimate family indoctrination into religion or anything else.

neither of my parents are atheist but i am

but maybe i just rebelled because i was treated poorly
i'd rather go with the idea that i'm just an open-minded genius like the heroes of ayn rand novels

[reprise85]

yeah but the average mormon family is much more involved in their church (or whatever it's called) than mainstream christians or jews (assuming your parents are one or a combo of these). with mormons you're talking about underwear and a certain kind of dress code and doing missions and just all kinds of random rituals thrown in to give people a false sense of security. we like familiar things - rituals are calming for most people

imo - i think the biggest thing is that religious people, in general, are ok with their locus of control being outside of themselves and that god is there to live your life around. i dont have that, i can change my life from within, no god is going to do that from without. internal locus of control. definitely one of the big differences between thiests and athiests/agnostics, although it doesnt have to be in all cases

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

Appreciate it, and the rep. I'm not one to shy away from conversations like this one, so I appreciate it when humanity persists.

And, yeah - I am indoctrinated. I'll admit that. But my faith is mine, man. It goes way beyond that. I didn't walk around North Dakota on my mission in the dead of winter because Mommy and Daddy told me I needed to do it - I did it because I believe what I was sharing with people. I believe that because I've spent hours on my knees coming to these conclusions.

I'm indoctrinated to a point - then I've gotten deep into books that 99% of LDS folks won't ever crack to understand what leaders of our church teach, and align that with what I believe.

Not insulted at all, man. Again - digging this thread. Love how at the core, Netphorians are great. Probably what's kept me coming back here for 13 years.

yeah, you did go on your mission because of your parents. you wouldn't have gotten to that point if you hadn't been LDS. That's not to say you wouldn't have done other good works. It just would have been something different.

If you had been born to a Muslim family you would have felt the exact same way about Islam and you might have gone on the Hajj. If you'd been born to a devout Catholic family you'd feel that way about Catholicism and done some type of mission. If you'd been born to conservative Jews you'd be on their side. And if you'd been born to commited athiests you'd probably have a strong secular humanist perspective.

You FEEL that way because you are genetically predisposed to it, and you were raised in a family that thoroughly indoctrinated you in their belief system.

Most religions understand that, and in the case of LDS and other christian groups like "Quiver Full" fundamentalists or even the Catholic Church, a big part of promoting large families (ie. anti birth control) is specifically to breed more followers. It's much harder to convert people (especially from one completely different religion to another) than it is to make new ones from scratch.

[SuckSuckStyle]

lol from scratch

[SuckSuckStyle]

http://www.levelupyourcooking.com/wp...om-scratch.jpg