help me understand Jesus

[slunken]

and some view Mary as divine as well.

[Mooney]

Originally Posted by hnibos

I mean, it's so incredibly obvious that God is looking out for us. That's why he sent his son. The ultimate sacrifice, to save ourselves from our sins and wretched afterlife. I mean, the Bible is an historically accurate document, and all of this can be found in there.

god loves us. god creates man in his own image and gave us free will. god murdered every human on the planet in a flood save one family because he didn't like what we did with our free will. god created hell, and sent every single human being there when they died, righteous or not. after a hundred or so thousands years of sending every human to a hell he created, he decides to be the hero and send his only begotten son to save us from this awful hell place which he created. because he loves us.

[slunken]

the dichotomy between heaven and hell has to exist otherwise neither would exist

[slunken]

from a theologian's POV

[slunken]

this is why i think it's more plausible that jesus (or other gods) could have simply been an ancient space traveler and a shitty one at that all he did was walk on water and make a bunch of food.

parlour tricks.

[slunken]

so actually probably not jesus at all

[slunken]

though it's even more plausible that these "aliens" are just ourselves from a different timeline

[slunken]

jesus was just enlightened i'll give him that much credit

[Mooney]

Originally Posted by slunken

jesus was just enlightened i'll give him that much credit

i used to think jesus never existed but now i think he was actually a pretty sweet philosopher, and side with the jews that he was simply a false prophet.

[null123]

Originally Posted by reprise85

i really just don't get it. worship your sky monster - okay. but seriously, dude gets born he's god's son but he is also somehow god himself.

I used to be a hardcore Christian and I think the appeal of Jesus is that he is both God and human, so he's a more relatable authority figure and role model than an invisible sky monster.

In Christianity there is the concept of the Trinity, which is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. These are just different facets of the same divine entity, like alter egos. They do different things in the story.

dies for everyone's sins but isn't god basically just masturbating with jesus because why does he need to punish someone for sins in the first place.

I mean yeah that is a very valid viewpoint. To me the only half-reasonable way to interpret Christianity would to be to take it far from a literal interpretation. Something like,

Hell is spiritual separation from God (eternal suffering is a way to express the spiritual destitution that results from a rejection of God)
Sin is deviation from a spiritually healthy way to live
Sinners go to "hell" because a sinful life leads to separation from God

Jews were all about sacrificing animals to atone for their sins. Jesus was supposedly the ultimate blood sacrifice that made all other sacrifices unnecessary. So theoretically the way to salvation is through our own acceptance of this sacrifice on our behalf. Christians would say this act reveals a lot of things about God's personality, like his investment in the salvation of our mortal souls (our spiritual well-being, if you will).

i know at least a couple of you guys are practicing christians. is there some logic besides 'faith' that you guys see?

I think Christianity or any religion is just a way of systematizing the world through a particular cultural lens that emotionally resonates for the believer. Christians don't have any proof or tangible reason to believe although a lot of them seem to think they do.

[slunken]

well look who dropped in to say hi.

everybody say hi to micky

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by 28if

"Is there some logic behind faith that I see?" Uhhhh, I duno. I am not a big fan of "logic." In certain eastern trains of thought, especially japanese apparently, they speak of/identify multiple logics. In the west we see logic as like... infallible system of reason. If something is logical, it is "true." But I think it might be better to see logic as a kind of personal ideology, like, everyone has their own logic that leads them to the conclusions that are suggested by their experiences? Does that make sense?

i actually completely agree with this and wasn't looking for "logic-logic" as much as anything but faith.

my family is secular but jewish heritage. i didn't learn about the bible at all until later when i read portions of it myself. no one has ever been able to give me a decent rundown really. feelings and beliefs make sense in context - like say a schizophrenic is delusional but it makes internal sense and follows a sort of "logic" that way that a person observing them could see if they were interested. the original idea is what is flawed. i guess i was hoping to see the internal logic if this makes any sense.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by slunken

though it's even more plausible that these "aliens" are just ourselves from a different timeline

i do think the alien theories are interesting and also this one

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

I used to be a hardcore Christian and I think the appeal of Jesus is that he is both God and human, so he's a more relatable authority figure and role model than an invisible sky monster.

In Christianity there is the concept of the Trinity, which is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. These are just different facets of the same divine entity, like alter egos. They do different things in the story.

This concept also confuses me. It seems polytheistic. I do kind of understand the alter ego thing I just think it's very convoluted which I guess it is because it's heavily symbolic.

Hell is spiritual separation from God (eternal suffering is a way to express the spiritual destitution that results from a rejection of God)
Sin is deviation from a spiritually healthy way to live
Sinners go to "hell" because a sinful life leads to separation from God

Am I already not separated from god? Yet I am not spiritually destitute.
And can't they just become born again christians and be fine? The jesus loophole and all. But I guess god knows if they are being sincere? Even if they are being sincere, people can make themselves believe anything if they want it bad enough. I'm kind of rambling don't know my point anymore on this one.

Jews were all about sacrificing animals to atone for their sins. Jesus was supposedly the ultimate blood sacrifice that made all other sacrifices unnecessary. So theoretically the way to salvation is through our own acceptance of this sacrifice on our behalf. Christians would say this act reveals a lot of things about God's personality, like his investment in the salvation of our mortal souls (our spiritual well-being, if you will).

I have never really thought of it this way. To me it seems like god is just playing with people in these scenarios. He's God. He can do anything. Why can't he heal the hearts of sinners whether they ask for it or not?

I think Christianity or any religion is just a way of systematizing the world through a particular cultural lens that emotionally resonates for the believer. Christians don't have any proof or tangible reason to believe although a lot of them seem to think they do.

Yeah, I guess I'm looking for more where there really isn't any. Great response. thanks

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by hnibos

You lack the spiritual gene duh. You're just not a complete human being, Erica.

I'm starting to realize that being connected to myself and the world in more meaningful ways is making me happier and that maybe in a simple way that's all spirituality is for people who aren't just brainwashed into one religion or another.

[null123]

Originally Posted by reprise85

Am I already not separated from god? Yet I am not spiritually destitute.
And can't they just become born again christians and be fine? The jesus loophole and all. But I guess god knows if they are being sincere? Even if they are being sincere, people can make themselves believe anything if they want it bad enough. I'm kind of rambling don't know my point anymore on this one.

In Christianity, everyone is born into sin. That's the significance of the story of Adam and Eve. The "Jesus loophole" is then necessary for everyone. And God is said to "weigh the hearts of men" so he knows if you're really naughty or nice. Everyone has to become a born-again Christian in order to get to heaven (which could be seen as a metaphor for spiritual enlightenment, but it usually isn't spoken of that way)

I have never really thought of it this way. To me it seems like god is just playing with people in these scenarios. He's God. He can do anything. Why can't he heal the hearts of sinners whether they ask for it or not?

Yeah. A typical Christian argument here would be that God needs people to choose to love him for it to be meaningful. I don't think that really covers it or makes sense. If I were a Christian I'd argue that even God might be bound by certain laws of his own nature.

[exactlythesame]

charmbag is doing a fairly good job at explaining some of these things. what church did you grow up in?

i just hope everyone knows that there are thousands of different "christian" churches. you really cannot sum all those beliefs up into one nice, tidy, succinct, and accurate explanation.

[null123]

Yeah that's true. I was raised in a non-denominational evangelical church by a Bible literalist mom. What I'm saying is somewhat reflective of that, but it should cover the tenets of most mainstream Christian churches, particularly among American protestants.

[null123]

Originally Posted by reprise85

This concept also confuses me. It seems polytheistic. I do kind of understand the alter ego thing I just think it's very convoluted which I guess it is because it's heavily symbolic.

I should mention that this was also a confusing thing for people in the early Church and still divides modern Christian churches. It was pretty much the first major issue the Catholic Church set out to resolve, with the Council of Nicea, which resulted in an extremely influential unified theory about the nature of the Trinity. The Nicene Creed avows both of Jesus' divinity and his unification with God the Father, and is accepted by the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran and most Protestant churches. So basically everyone.

[barden]

Originally Posted by 28if

Uhhhhh, I duno. I am not a big fan of "logic."

.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

I should mention that this was also a confusing thing for people in the early Church and still divides modern Christian churches. It was pretty much the first major issue the Catholic Church set out to resolve, with the Council of Nicea, which resulted in an extremely influential unified theory about the nature of the Trinity. The Nicene Creed avows both of Jesus' divinity and his unification with God the Father, and is accepted by the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran and most Protestant churches. So basically everyone.

i had typed up a several-paragraph explanation about the differences in christian religions but i accidentally navigated away while i was typing it so i'll do a summary here using this post as a springboard:

catholic religions rely heavily on the divinity of christ as part of the holy trinity. in fact, it is this doctrine which necessitates the worship of mary as divine, as she bore god himself in her womb. heaven is where you end up when you die if you were good and hell where you go when you're evil. they also believe in apostolic succession (the line of the apostles) and claim that it can be traced all the way back to st. peter (the papacy is based on this.) this belief in saints and their worship is also distinct in catholicism. there is heavy use of tradition and practices such as confession, rote prayers, holy water baptism, etc.

protestant religions cover the vast majority of the rest of christianity, but there are some religions that claim to be neither protestant nor catholic. they generally eschew the apostolic succession and do away with the practices of catholics, but retain the belief in the trinity and hellfire as doctrine. here are are a few different types in that category which you've likely encountered:

angelican
baptist
presbyterian
methodist
lutheran
congregational
seventh-day adventist

this list looks brief but there are many many different offshoots of these and their doctrinal beliefs vary in each one (this is what makes them a different denomination.) their teachings on hellfire, the trinity, the resurrection, where you go when you die, or the mortal identity of the soul are as probabilistically allowable as they can get.

at least now i hope everyone can see how difficult it is to answer what a "christian belief" is. ideally, a christian should be answering from the bible and use it as the main and only source of doctrine as that is what all christian religions claim to base their beliefs on. however this is often not the case. human tradition, pagan (nonchristian) beliefs, and other sources usually will make their presence known in each one of these denominations at some point.

anyway, thanks for listening. this took a while to write (i've probably been typing for an hour between this post and the last.) any questions from here on out about what christians believe should be viewed through this knowledge that there is not a well defined answer to anything being asked here that covers every single christain way of thinking.

[TuralyonW3]

Schizophrenic cult leader

[vixnix]

I enjoy the ideas of Karen Armstrong and Marcus Borg and find them pretty useful.

[cocksure]

Originally Posted by 28if

Christians don't think that Jesus is "somehow God himself." Jesus is a prophet, God is God. I guess that answers your questions kindof.

you sound like one of em towelheads

[cocksure]

Originally Posted by Charmbag

I used to be a hardcore Christian and I think the appeal of Jesus is that he is both God and human, so he's a more relatable authority figure and role model than an invisible sky monster.
...

really good post. finally someone here who tries to understand christianity before rejecting it.

not that you had a choice

[Eulogy]

no christian religion considers mary divine. well, i guess i can't say that with 100% certainty, but the catholics are the ones who get ragged on for deifying her, but she is not considered divine.

common misconception. so maybe exactlythesame should learn stuff before trying to tell everyone else how wrong and misguided they are. and everyone is already aware that there are different christian groups. generalization is still possible.

[Eulogy]

also 28if is still the worst

[cocksure]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

i had typed up a several-paragraph explanation about the differences in christian religions but i accidentally navigated away while i was typing it so i'll do a summary here using this post as a springboard:

catholic religions rely heavily on the divinity of christ as part of the holy trinity. in fact, it is this doctrine which necessitates the worship of mary as divine, as she bore god himself in her womb.

roman catholics do not worship mary as divine, they simply worship her because she's the mother of jesus.

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

heaven is where you end up when you die if you were good and hell where you go when you're evil. they also believe in apostolic succession (the line of the apostles) and claim that it can be traced all the way back to st. peter (the papacy is based on this.) this belief in saints and their worship is also distinct in catholicism. there is heavy use of tradition and practices such as confession, rote prayers, holy water baptism, etc.

yes, but i would like to add that both apostolic succession and the worship of saints is very widespread among orthodox churches.

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

protestant religions cover the vast majority of the rest of christianity, but there are some religions that claim to be neither protestant nor catholic. they generally eschew the apostolic succession and do away with the practices of catholics, but retain the belief in the trinity and hellfire as doctrine. here are are a few different types in that category which you've likely encountered:

angelican
baptist
presbyterian
methodist
lutheran
congregational
seventh-day adventist

this list looks brief but there are many many different offshoots of these and their doctrinal beliefs vary in each one (this is what makes them a different denomination.) their teachings on hellfire, the trinity, the resurrection, where you go when you die, or the mortal identity of the soul are as probabilistically allowable as they can get.

no. aside from anglicans, who made "protestant yet catholic" their motto, all those other denominations are clearly protestant. luther! sheesh! where do you think protestantism comes from? it is true that lutheranism is closer to catholicism than say calvinism but it still did away with those aspects of the catholic church that were criticised the most in the early modern period.

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

at least now i hope everyone can see how difficult it is to answer what a "christian belief" is. ideally, a christian should be answering from the bible and use it as the main and only source of doctrine as that is what all christian religions claim to base their beliefs on. however this is often not the case. human tradition, pagan (nonchristian) beliefs, and other sources usually will make their presence known in each one of these denominations at some point.

you somehow assume that "ideally" christianity should look at the bible as its main source. this is by no means self-evident, in fact, it is a protestant doctrine. the distinction between tradition and scripture is also nowhere near as clean-cut as you suggest - a christian will read the bible differently from a muslim etc.

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

anyway, thanks for listening. this took a while to write (i've probably been typing for an hour between this post and the last.) any questions from here on out about what christians believe should be viewed through this knowledge that there is not a well defined answer to anything being asked here that covers every single christain way of thinking.

it is true that christianity is extremely fragmented and varied. what i think they all have in common is a focus on the life story of jesus, either as an example to live by, or a warning of things to come, or whatever.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by 28if

Christians don't think that Jesus is "somehow God himself." Jesus is a prophet, God is God. I guess that answers your questions kindof.

the fuck are you talking about

that's what muslims and jews believe

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by cocksure

roman catholics do not worship mary as divine, they simply worship her because she's the mother of jesus.

catholics do not worship mary (i mean they basically do but they don't call it that). they "honor" her.