Boy when you get older people get stupid huh

[Eulogy]

i think there was actually some group trying to organize to ban divorce in order to make a point. not sure whatever happened with that.

[MyOneAndOnly]

del

[MyOneAndOnly]

a big part of authoritarian institutions, whether it's religion, government, corporations, etc. is creating enemies. Gays, atheists and muslims are the only enemies left that churches can still openly demonize

[Fellatio Mask!]

they say you should boycott the salvation army because they're anti-gay but shouldnt you already be boycotting them because its real annoying when those guys ring the bell at you when you just wanna buy doritos

[MyOneAndOnly]

years ago, unionists used to call them "The Starvation Army" cause they preached "pie in the sky when you die" instead of doing things to make the world better. The Salvation Army used to be vehemently anti union. they would organize protests against unions. They'd show up at union demonstrations with people singing hymns.

stupid

[SuckSuckStyle]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

i get to pick my friends. and i have plenty of them. i don't need to be friends with people who vote against my personal interests and think i live in sin.

most people who say this also have a lot of people selectively excluded from their lives. and this is what makes me sad- the generalization of someone based on the modern litmus test to determine what part of the fence they're on and how you should treat them respectively.

you choose not to be friends with people who vote-anti gay but whine when fag-haters symbolically make a point not to be friends with you. and the thing is, most people who in all appearances are accepting of different lifestyles, but behind closed doors vote against them are not the ones throwing around the word fag, teaching their kids to hate, or picketing street corners. its their vote, their right, their secret. and the fact that they publicly are more or less 'okay' with it, says something about their character- that they understand we're human, too and choose to be friends with you even though you vote against what they may think is THEIR right to marry.

look what i'm saying is that personal beliefs go both ways, and generally can't change eachother's minds. and if everyone thought like you did, polarization of social thought in this country would be even worse.

just like you, people who vote against your interests are voting for what they believe are THEIRS. just because you dont think your vote is in some way oppressive to them (regardless of if it is or not), doesnt mean they dont have the right to believe it does.

it just comes down to respecting everyone's right to believe what they choose. you dont have to like it, but the minute you lose respect for the right to individual free thought, you lose your own legitimacy.

does it bother me to know that some of my friends or people i know would like the word 'gay' out of schools? yeah, it does. does it bother me enough to pointedly ignore the fact that as humans we both have something to offer eachother? no.

[SuckSuckStyle]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

also i think this is a huge copout for bigots. being lgb or t is not a "lifestyle."

in her eyes, it is, dude. and i'm not going to try and change her mind because it wont matter.

[SuckSuckStyle]

i think the original idea behind this thread is exactly what i'm talking about- Trots is upset because his old friends' new beliefs offend him and create a distance. but he'd still like to think that they might one day be able to be friends again. there's nothing wrong with that. pretty simple.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by SuckSuckStyle

most people who say this also have a lot of people selectively excluded from their lives. and this is what makes me sad- the generalization of someone based on the modern litmus test to determine what part of the fence they're on and how you should treat them respectively.

you choose not to be friends with people who vote-anti gay but whine when fag-haters symbolically make a point not to be friends with you.

No, I don't. If their not wanting to be friends with me was the only problem, I'd be really ok with that. But it's not.

and the thing is, most people who in all appearances are accepting of different lifestyles, but behind closed doors vote against them are not the ones throwing around the word fag, teaching their kids to hate, or picketing street corners.

No, but they're helping to create an environment that fosters all of those things.

its their vote, their right, their secret. and the fact that they publicly are more or less 'okay' with it, says something about their character- that they understand we're human, too and choose to be friends with you even though you vote against what they may think is THEIR right to marry.

look what i'm saying is that personal beliefs go both ways, and generally can't change eachother's minds. and if everyone thought like you did, polarization of social thought in this country would be even worse.

just like you, people who vote against your interests are voting for what they believe are THEIRS. just because you dont think your vote is in some way oppressive to them (regardless of if it is or not), doesnt mean they dont have the right to believe it does.

it just comes down to respecting everyone's right to believe what they choose. you dont have to like it, but the minute you lose respect for the right to individual free thought, you lose your own legitimacy.

Beliefs are one thing. Legislating and constitutionalizing those beliefs are completely different, and that's what I have a problem with. People can believe whatever stupid shit they want until it starts to affect the lives of others.

does it bother me to know that some of my friends or people i know would like the word 'gay' out of schools? yeah, it does. does it bother me enough to pointedly ignore the fact that as humans we both have something to offer eachother? no.

I'm still civil. I don't really see why any more should be expected, or how it would help me or anyone else to maintain friendships with people I don't like.

[SuckSuckStyle]

over it.


sometimes i just feel really sorry for you, dude.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by SuckSuckStyle

in her eyes, it is, dude. and i'm not going to try and change her mind because it wont matter.

I don't understand this attitude at all. Again, I'm not saying you need to get in her face or be uncivil when you see her outside. But to maintain a friendship is to offer tacit approval of her views. Which in the instance of this one lady is largely fine but in the larger scheme of things, it's part of what ensures that these backward beliefs will live on.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by SuckSuckStyle

sometimes i just feel really sorry for you, dude.

why?

[SuckSuckStyle]

you: "why do you maintain a friendship with someone who votes against your personal interest and rights?"

my 70 year old neighbor's bridge club ladies: "what were you doing talking to that....thing? is that a transvestite? is that what they call them now? my lord what has the world come to...."

me: "hey how are you? good! good to see you have a good thanksgiving"

there is a lot to be said about positive energy.

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by D.

i dunno - i learned a while ago that being hardcore/annoyingly into anything turns a lot of people off. well-roundness is the key.

me too, exactly.

I dunno if anybody remembers but years ago I was the fire-breathing liberal of the politics board but I've calmed the fuck down I think. brendan prolly thinks that's selling out, too.

[SuckSuckStyle]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

why?

the things you think you think you know.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by SuckSuckStyle

you: "why do you maintain a friendship with someone who votes against your personal interest and rights?"

my 70 year old neighbor's bridge club ladies: "what were you doing talking to that....thing? is that a transvestite? is that what they call them now? my lord what has the world come to...."

me: "hey how are you? good! good to see you have a good thanksgiving"

there is a lot to be said about positive energy.

This sounds more like civility and less like a friendship to me. Perhaps we're talking past each other. There's nothing wrong with saying hello and wishing her a good Thanksgiving, and I never meant to imply that there was.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by SuckSuckStyle

the things you think you think you know.

all i said was that i don't want to be friends with a certain kind of person and that i don't see why people who share my beliefs and principles think they have to be.

i don't want to be friends with boring people either.

isn't everyone selective about who their friends are? why am i being talked to as if this is some terrible thing i'm doing to myself?

[SuckSuckStyle]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

This sounds more like civility and less like a friendship to me. Perhaps we're talking past each other. There's nothing wrong with saying hello and wishing her a good Thanksgiving, and I never meant to imply that there was.

but look- even though she may vote against gays, blah blah blah.

maybe at her bridge club someone will ask about me. someone with a prejudice.
and she tells them about me, who i am, what i do and how i'm a pretty good person ( we talk more than just 'happy thanksgiving'. she knows when i travel, where i go, gives me tips and has given donations to the various causes i have worked for)

and maybe one of her bridge club friends will hear this and think a little more kindly on their gay grandkid or something

and maybe that gay grandkid will have it just a little better because grandma's friend told her about me and that i'm pretty normal and a kind person, and now she's seen a different perspective, something other than rainbow boas and booty shorts walking through the castro.

maybe. maybe not. but if i had stopped being friends with her when i got older, just because i'm very queer and decided she was the 'enemy', definitely not.

this is a reason to be friends with people you might not like. it's something i learned being on a college team- you're forced to become family with many people who you might not even be friends with otherwise. there are always benefits.

[Eulogy]

if the gay grandkid isn't enough for them to rethink their prejudice, i kind of doubt a bridge club friend's story will do much for it (unless said grandkid is all booty shorts and walking through the castro... which is fairly unlikely).

i see your point. but i think the same is accomplished with general civility and humanity and just, you know, being normal.

but additionally, it's just inherently different with old people. try to apply the same thought process to a 23-year-old and it won't seem the same.

[duovamp]

Would this srsly even be an issue without God? Let's look at the cause of our problems, not the effects.

[SuckSuckStyle]

you'd be surprised.

i rowed with a lot of religious prep school trust fund kids. you'd be surprised which ones i'm still down with and which ones i'm not.

you'd also be surprised at how insensitive a lot of my very liberal west-coast friends are towards my transition.

character can trump opposing beliefs as well as congruent ones.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by SuckSuckStyle

you'd be surprised.

i rowed with a lot of religious prep school trust fund kids. you'd be surprised which ones i'm still down with and which ones i'm not.

you'd also be surprised at how insensitive a lot of my very liberal west-coast friends are towards my transition.

character can trump opposing beliefs as well as congruent ones.

how liberal can they be if they're insensitive about a transition (and sorry, that sucks)? and either way, this isn't really about liberal/conservative, it's about people's views regarding lgbt folks. so if the religious prep school trust fund kids are supportive, then that's not who i'm talking about.

i mean i know a decent number of religious prep school trust fund kids, and they're not all the same.

[Fellatio Mask!]

this thread should have been titled eulogy siren

[SuckSuckStyle]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

how liberal can they be if they're insensitive about a transition (and sorry, that sucks)? and either way, this isn't really about liberal/conservative, it's about people's views regarding lgbt folks. so if the religious prep school trust fund kids are supportive, then that's not who i'm talking about.

i mean i know a decent number of religious prep school trust fund kids, and they're not all the same.

i'm talking about the ones who never even knew i was gay because that's how disconnected they were from all of it. Roman Catholics who don't use birth control but send me emails once in a while telling me they're proud of me and love me. kids who were big in campus crusade for christ that i coached, invited over to my apartment for team dinners where i lived with my gf and have told me they loved me as a coach. youd better believe these kids love christ and hate sin, but it didnt bother them to be coached by me.

vs...other transguys who exclude me from their clique and reindeer games bc im not queer enough. Or my very "liberal" new england friends who supported me when i was gay, but have pretty much ignored me and my transition as soon as i started. there are so many different parts of the spectrum.

[Rairun]

I'm on a mailing list with half a dozen people from high school. I don't get to see them anymore (we live in different countries), but I still read their e-mails. The other day one of them invited the others to come over for his birthday. "All significant others invited: wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends, cats, dogs, etc. Just don't bring any trannies." Ugh. It was the one guy who stuck out for me too, when I was basically one big bully target. It still makes me sad whenever I think of him.

[mxzombie]

Originally Posted by SuckSuckStyle

she votes against my personal interests...is her passive homophobia really hurting me?

yes, although i agree that one should be civil whenever possible and a difference in beliefs isn't necessarily a reason to abandon that civility. and i'm all for letting insults and affronts roll off whenever possible. but yes, her passive homophobia is hurting you because it's certainly active homophobia whenever she votes against something like gay marriage. she is, in part, personally responsible for hindering the progress toward acceptance of every lgbt person in society.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by SuckSuckStyle

i'm talking about the ones who never even knew i was gay because that's how disconnected they were from all of it. Roman Catholics who don't use birth control but send me emails once in a while telling me they're proud of me and love me. kids who were big in campus crusade for christ that i coached, invited over to my apartment for team dinners where i lived with my gf and have told me they loved me as a coach. youd better believe these kids love christ and hate sin, but it didnt bother them to be coached by me.

vs...other transguys who exclude me from their clique and reindeer games bc im not queer enough. Or my very "liberal" new england friends who supported me when i was gay, but have pretty much ignored me and my transition as soon as i started. there are so many different parts of the spectrum.

if the roman catholics who are against birth control and tell you they love you vote against your civil interests based on their religious beliefs... then they have some things they need to reconcile within themselves. i'm glad you have good relationships with them though.

but again, my whole point is about how people think of and treat lgbt people. so if they're pro-lgbt-rights catholics then they aren't who i'm talking about.

and the people you say suck sound like they suck. pro-lgbt-rights people are still fully capable of sucking. and pro-lgb people are fully capable of being dumbasses when it comes to trans issues. i don't know what this has to do with what i was trying to say though.

[SuckSuckStyle]

Originally Posted by mxzombie

yes, although i agree that one should be civil whenever possible and a difference in beliefs isn't necessarily a reason to abandon that civility. and i'm all for letting insults and affronts roll off whenever possible. but yes, her passive homophobia is hurting you because it's certainly active homophobia whenever she votes against something like gay marriage. she is, in part, personally responsible for hindering the progress toward acceptance of every lgbt person in society.

i agree. her vote IS hindering progress in the legal system. but her relationship with me is symbolic of unseen progress and in some weird way i feel like that counts for SOMETHING, even if the reality is she is on the other side, and even if it seems like i'm giving her a pass for playing the "i have a gay friend" card or whatever.

but it's not enough of a reason for me to write her off. you know? I understand both arguments, guess i'm just an optimist.

[reprise85]

del

[D.]

my parents don't like the gays but i still see them every week. is it different for those one is related to?