acupuncture

[yo soy el mejor]

what is cupping?

[duovamp]

Guys, this "it might be bullshit but it works for me, in spite of having no factual foundation" thought process is why religion happens. Come on.

[SuckSuckStyle]

there is a lot of factual foundation....

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by duovamp

Guys, this "it might be bullshit but it works for me, in spite of having no factual foundation" is why religion happens. Come on.

yes



I've found that the people who are the biggest devotees of such woo tend to be athletes. My wife is a professional athlete and she has a person chiropractor who works with her several times per week. she used to have a coach that practiced Reiki. I know at least another dozen professional athletes who do everything from acupuncture to visiting with a shaman on a regular basis.

it's nuts

but if it makes em happy, whatever. people believe what they believe

[duovamp]

From scienticians.

[SuckSuckStyle]

edit

[SuckSuckStyle]

i'm not an expert so i dont know exact specifics, but it's all about the natural inner balance of your body, and rather than treat the body with foreign chemicals to mask symptoms, some people choose to treat the body it's self.

i'd much rather pay a private practice GP who can give me prescriptions if i need them, can understand the dis-ease in my body and treat me holistically than pay into the rx companies anymore. i fell through the cracks and i dont trust script slangers. This is the first doc I have trusted in 5 years.

this is a practice of medicine that is thousands of years old. It's not popular because people see it as barbaric and a slap in the face to western medicine and a threat to special interests.

call an acupuncturist or chiro and ask them to explain exactly what they do, HOW, and WHY it works.

then call your doc or a pharmacist or a drug company and ask the same thing of their treatments.

then tell me which answer makes you feel more human. there's a reason many athletes turn to this type of thing. athletes know their bodies in a way that most people don't.

[duovamp]

Sounds like magic to me.

[SuckSuckStyle]

Originally Posted by yo soy el mejor

what is cupping?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_cupping

I haven't tried it yet but heard good things.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by duovamp

Sounds like magic to me.

yes

cause when you is sick, best to see witch doctor that tells you what you want to hear than a guy in a white lab coat who says you gotta lose 50lbs, stop smoking weed and exercise more.

fuck science!

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by SuckSuckStyle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_cupping

I haven't tried it yet but heard good things.

more nonsense


why not just bleed yourself. that's natural, isn't it? get the poison and evil out!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodletting

plus, if you're into cutting, it's like multitasking

[myosis]

my friend went bicycling through Canada, she did 6000 km in a summer.
after a while she developped a knee problem and some guy treated her with acupuncture (for free, mind you) and it really improved her condition. she was able to go on.

the difference between being functional and not functional is enough to warrant giving it a go.
believing that scientific studies are not biased is just as laughable.

believing that everything worth knowing is scientifically demonstrable is ludicrous. this is believing that human knowledge, human perception and its process are perfect and complete, this is a god-like belief thats boils down to be of the same nature as religion. deep down, religion and science are sisters.

[myosis]

well this sounded like reciting nietzsche...

[SuckSuckStyle]

Originally Posted by myosis

believing that everything worth knowing is scientifically demonstrable is ludicrous. this is believing that human knowledge, human perception and its process are perfect and complete, this is a god-like belief thats boils down to be of the same nature as religion. deep down, religion and science are sisters.

yah.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by myosis

my friend went bicycling through Canada, she did 6000 km in a summer.
after a while she developped a knee problem and some guy treated her with acupuncture (for free, mind you) and it really improved her condition. she was able to go on.

or, her knee hurt and then eventually it didn't hurt. Correlation does not imply causation.

Originally Posted by myosis

the difference between being functional and not functional is enough to warrant giving it a go.
believing that scientific studies are not biased is just as laughable.

assuming that all science is somehow biased is riduculous. the alternative to not enough facts should not be "make up some voodoo shit"!

Originally Posted by myosis

believing that everything worth knowing is scientifically demonstrable is ludicrous. this is believing that human knowledge, human perception and its process are perfect and complete, this is a god-like belief thats boils down to be of the same nature as religion. deep down, religion and science are sisters.

uhhh, no. they're not.

[SuckSuckStyle]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

or, her knee hurt and then eventually it didn't hurt. Correlation does not imply causation



assuming that all science is somehow biased is riduculous. the alternative to not enough facts should not be "make up some voodoo shit"!



uhhh, no. they're not.

good for you, champ.

[reprise85]

My psychiatrist has me on five meds (that are working), and certainly is not all about alternative treatment. However, he takes supplements himself like 5-HTP and believes himself that acupuncture has helped him. He is not a stupid person or a religious man. Again I am not saying it is not just placebo effect, but he has a shit ton of credentials. He also went to Berkley like your guy, SSS.

Maybe they are teaching woo-woo shit at one of the most prominent medical schools in America

I am not making a judgment either way and mass belief of course does not make something true. But I do believe there is something to it.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by myosis

believing that everything worth knowing is scientifically demonstrable is ludicrous. this is believing that human knowledge, human perception and its process are perfect and complete, this is a god-like belief thats boils down to be of the same nature as religion. deep down, religion and science are sisters.

this x 1000
except for the last line, I do think they are sisters but not in the way you are implying.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by reprise85

My psychiatrist has me on five meds (that are working), and certainly is not all about alternative treatment. However, he takes supplements himself like 5-HTP and believes himself that acupuncture has helped him. He is not a stupid person or a religious man. Again I am not saying it is not just placebo effect, but he has a shit ton of credentials. He also went to Berkley like your guy, SSS.

Maybe they are teaching woo-woo shit at one of the most prominent medical schools in America

I am not making a judgment either way and mass belief of course does not make something true. But I do believe there is something to it.

So, because your doctor went to a good school, acupuncture is good?

your doctor didn't learn that woo woo shit in medical school.

there are plenty of people who go to good schools and have bad judgment.

any physician who is advising acupuncture as treatment should not be trusted for their medical advice. Medicine is a fact based practice. Medicine is a science. When you ignore the FACT that acupuncture has absolutely no efficacy, that there is NO science to support it, you are not practicing medicine.

[Rairun]

I tend to disagree with Scotty about all things pumpkins related, but I actually have to side with him here (though his tone is a little out of place, since people are just sharing personal anecdotes--not engaging in an full-blown debate).

Either way, it's not that science is perfect in what it tells us about the world: it's just that the other methods don't tell us anything at all. You do need to employ the scientific method to figure out if a certain kind of treatment works or not. It's specially designed to weed out the uncertainties we find in anecdotes. For example, we'll never know if myosis' friend got better from acupuncture or if her body healed itself. We simply don't have enough information to decide. What we could do, though, is treat a bunch of people with the same condition with acupuncture, and then another bunch with a mock treatment. If the results were the same, well, there you go. It'd be good evidence that acupuncture didn't actually do anything.

(Similar studies have in fact been performed and they've shown that the results are the same.)

[yo soy el mejor]

i can see why people don't like scotty... a veil has been lifted.

[myosis]

scotty has been on my ignore list for a while, i only see what others quote from him.

science is intellectually rigorous and has more credence than religion for most aspects of modern society but it will never succeed by itself in defining human existence.

they are just two very distinct manifestations of human desire to explain the world. one is intellectual, the other is spiritual. both are flawed, but one of them achieves more concrete results from a practical point of view.

i mentionned nietzsche because he argued that the shortcomings of them both is what allows art to maintain such importance.

acupuncture and rx are both based on cumulative knowledge, the difference is that in the end, your rx pill was statistically considered by three different studies (out of 5, 7, 10 ?) to be 19% more effective than a placebo for a certain condition. eh big deal!

can isolating factors and variables of a complex and chaotic system really be the epitome of knowledge? are statistics to be considered the ultimate arbiter of any given problem?

do they help? sure. they have a big value. are they the only thing of value?

are you trying to imply that folklore tells us nothing at all about the world? methods made up by humans cannot make us see the world from outside of a human. you will always remain a human.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

So, because your doctor went to a good school, acupuncture is good?

your doctor didn't learn that woo woo shit in medical school.

there are plenty of people who go to good schools and have bad judgment.

any physician who is advising acupuncture as treatment should not be trusted for their medical advice. Medicine is a fact based practice. Medicine is a science. When you ignore the FACT that acupuncture has absolutely no efficacy, that there is NO science to support it, you are not practicing medicine.

I specifically said that just because smart people believe it doesn't mean it's true.

And I know he didn't learn it in medical school.

Fact is it's a supplemental treatment and even if it is placebo - as we've already gone over - it still has a use.

Not to mention, what about catharsis from pain? Just like someone who cuts or burns, you are affecting the neurotransmitters transmissions and that will change the current amount of dopamine/norepinephrine/serotonin in the neurotransmitter receptors in your brain and gut, among other chemicals. Even if this is the only thing happening, it is in effect changing your mood and reaction to all sorts of things, namely physical and psychic pain.

And yes before you say it I realize this can also be achieved through things like exercising and sex. Which not everyone is capable of, but that's another topic.

Perhaps we could have a conversation about this but I don't think you know shit about the brain and have a completely closed mind about anything that isn't completely scientific. Maybe if doctors were trying to treat cancer with acupuncture you would have a point; as it is it is a subjective experience that seems to help people for whatever reasons.

[Sarcastic Smile]

I can't even read this thread because scotty whatever the fucks comments are so infuriated. Can I ask what you do for a living or what science type education you have that has caused you to form this opinion? I'm really asking. Because I sometimes get chastised here for being to science biased (trots) but your comments are just ridiculous... Also, why are you acting like holistic medicine isn't being taught in medical schools? Many believe that is the best, well rounded education. You would prefer these pill slinging monkeys, who are motivated by dollar signs, don't fully understand the side effects of drugs? You just sound like someone who believes pills are the cure for everything and doctors are smarter than actual scientist.. a pill to cure everything, right?

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Gossamer

I think acupuncture along with most holistic medicine is very much placebo driven BUT placebo's are kind of awesome and it if works for you then go for it!

dream therapy is 4 real though yall

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Sarcastic Smile

I can't even read this thread because scotty whatever the fucks comments are so infuriated. Can I ask what you do for a living or what science type education you have that has caused you to form this opinion? I'm really asking. Because I sometimes get chastised here for being to science biased (trots) but your comments are just ridiculous...

uh no i chastise you for being awful

and "science type people" usually can express themselves a little more eloquently than the valley girl stream of consciousness drivel you pound out

for example

i dunno if you knew this

but scientists make drugs

and they help people

[Eulogy]

one of my coaches had some holistic/chiropractic center thing back in the day

when my hamstring exploded one time he insisted i see him there

so i did. and he did weird shit with lasers and had me take these little white pellets and none of it worked. at all. waste of time.

and uh... this article isn't exactly making it seem like it's a vital part of any medical school or a part at all at most http://www.usnews.com/education/best...icine?PageNr=1

not to back up scotty or anything. but c'mon.

for the record i will throw my hat in the "whatever works for people is great" ring. i'm in no place to say. but at the same time i wouldn't put this sort of stuff in the same arena as traditional western medicine. totally different animal, right?

[SuckSuckStyle]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

but at the same time i wouldn't put this sort of stuff in the same arena as traditional western medicine. totally different animal, right?

from 07-2010, i was treated for bipolar/panic disorder/OCD by countless drs, prescribed way too many heavy pharms was in and out of 4 psych wards and eventually the side effects of the meds made me unable to function and i was put on permanent disability. i still had episodes and all they did was just up all my dosages.

a little over a year ago i dropped it all cold turkey and replaced meds with vitamins and therapy with acupuncture.

overall, im healthier than I have been in a really long time. and even when I have an episode, i'm able to deal with it so much easier, faster, and not depend on pills that dope me out and make me an invalid. whatever they were doing wasn't working for me. if i had stayed on that path the next step planned out for me was electro shock therapy, i kid you not. so clearly, i looked for alternative options. it's like night and day.

but again, western medicine has its place and i am an extreme example. everybody's different and like what most people have said, if it works for you, sweet.

[reprise85]

i am glad you are doing better

[supermaid]

lol