The Libertarian Party

[Nimrod's Son]

Adopted in Convention, May 2010, St. Louis, Missouri


Preamble

As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.

These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.

Statement of Principles

We, the members of the Libertarian Party, challenge the cult of the omnipotent state and defend the rights of the individual.

We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose.

Governments throughout history have regularly operated on the opposite principle, that the State has the right to dispose of the lives of individuals and the fruits of their labor. Even within the United States, all political parties other than our own grant to government the right to regulate the lives of individuals and seize the fruits of their labor without their consent.

We, on the contrary, deny the right of any government to do these things, and hold that where governments exist, they must not violate the rights of any individual: namely, (1) the right to life -- accordingly we support the prohibition of the initiation of physical force against others; (2) the right to liberty of speech and action -- accordingly we oppose all attempts by government to abridge the freedom of speech and press, as well as government censorship in any form; and (3) the right to property -- accordingly we oppose all government interference with private property, such as confiscation, nationalization, and eminent domain, and support the prohibition of robbery, trespass, fraud, and misrepresentation.

Since governments, when instituted, must not violate individual rights, we oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals. People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others. They should be left free by government to deal with one another as free traders; and the resultant economic system, the only one compatible with the protection of individual rights, is the free market.

1.0 Personal Liberty

Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. No individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government. Our support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that we necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices.

1.1 Expression and Communication

We support full freedom of expression and oppose government censorship, regulation or control of communications media and technology. We favor the freedom to engage in or abstain from any religious activities that do not violate the rights of others. We oppose government actions which either aid or attack any religion.

1.2 Personal Privacy

Libertarians support the rights recognized by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons,
homes, and property. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure should ******* records held
by third parties, such as email, medical, and library records. Only actions that infringe on the rights
of others can properly be termed crimes. We favor the repeal of all laws creating “crimes” without
victims, such as the use of drugs for medicinal or recreational purposes.

1.3 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the
government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption,
immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or
restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices
and personal relationships.

1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

1.5 Crime and Justice

Government exists to protect the rights of every individual including life, liberty and property. Criminal laws should be limited to violation of the rights of others through force or fraud, or deliberate actions that place others involuntarily at significant risk of harm. Individuals retain the right to voluntarily assume risk of harm to themselves. We support restitution of the victim to the fullest degree possible at the expense of the criminal or the negligent wrongdoer. We oppose reduction of constitutional safeguards of the rights of the criminally accused. The rights of due process, a speedy trial, legal counsel, trial by jury, and the legal presumption of innocence until proven guilty, must not be denied. We assert the common-law right of juries to judge not only the facts but also the justice of the law.

1.6 Self-Defense

The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired
property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by
any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment
to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense.
We oppose all laws at any level of government requiring registration of, or restricting, the
ownership, manufacture, or transfer or sale of firearms or ammunition.

2.0 Economic Liberty

Libertarians want all members of society to have abundant opportunities to achieve economic
success. A free and competitive market allocates resources in the most efficient manner. Each
person has the right to offer goods and services to others on the free market. The only proper role of
government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a
legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to redistribute
wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society.


2.1 Property and Contract

Property rights are entitled to the same protection as all other human rights. The owners of property have the full right to control, use, dispose of, or in any manner enjoy, their property without interference, until and unless the exercise of their control infringes the valid rights of others. We oppose all controls on wages, prices, rents, profits, production, and interest rates. We advocate the repeal of all laws banning or restricting the advertising of prices, products, or services. We oppose all violations of the right to private property, liberty of contract, and freedom of trade. The right to trade includes the right not to trade — for any reasons whatsoever. Where property, including land, has been taken from its rightful owners by the government or private action in violation of individual rights, we favor restitution to the rightful owners.


2.2 Environment

We support a clean and healthy environment and sensible use of our natural resources. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Pollution and misuse of resources cause damage to our ecosystem. Governments, unlike private businesses, are unaccountable for such damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. We realize that our planet's climate is constantly changing, but environmental advocates and social pressure are the most effective means of changing public behavior.

2.3 Energy and Resources

While energy is needed to fuel a modern society, government should not be subsidizing any particular form of energy. We oppose all government control of energy pricing, allocation, and production.

2.4 Government Finance and Spending

All persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes.

2.5 Money and Financial Markets

We favor free-market banking, with unrestricted competition among banks and depository
institutions of all types. Individuals engaged in voluntary exchange should be free to use as money
any mutually agreeable commodity or item. We support a halt to inflationary monetary policies and
unconstitutional legal tender laws.


2.6 Monopolies and Corporations

We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of companies based on voluntary association. We seek to divest government of all functions that can be provided by non-governmental organizations or private individuals. We oppose government subsidies to business, labor, or any other special interest. Industries should be governed by free markets.

2.7 Labor Markets

We support repeal of all laws which impede the ability of any person to find employment. We oppose government-fostered forced retirement. We support the right of free persons to associate or not associate in labor unions, and an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union. We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain.

2.8 Education

Education, like any other service, is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Schools should be managed locally to achieve greater accountability and parental involvement. Recognizing that the education of children is inextricably linked to moral values, we would return authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. In particular, parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children's education.


2.9 Health Care

We favor restoring and reviving a free market health care system. We recognize the freedom of
individuals to determine the level of health insurance they want, the level of health care they want,
the care providers they want, the medicines and treatments they will use and all other aspects of
their medical care, including end-of-life decisions. People should be free to purchase health
insurance across state lines.


2.10 Retirement and Income Security

Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would
phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private
voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts
of private groups and individuals. We believe members of society will become more charitable and
civil society will be strengthened as government reduces its activity in this realm.

3.0 Securing Liberty

The protection of individual rights is the only proper purpose of government. Government is constitutionally limited so as to prevent the infringement of individual rights by the government itself. The principle of non-initiation of force should guide the relationships between governments.

3.1 National Defense

We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression.
The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as
policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.

3.2 Internal Security and Individual Rights

The defense of the country requires that we have adequate intelligence to detect and to counter
threats to domestic security. This requirement must not take priority over maintaining the civil
liberties of our citizens. The Constitution and Bill of Rights shall not be suspended even during time
of war. Intelligence agencies that legitimately seek to preserve the security of the nation must be
subject to oversight and transparency. We oppose the government's use of secret classifications to
keep from the public information that it should have, especially that which shows that the
government has violated the law.

3.3 International Affairs

American foreign policy should seek an America at peace with the world. Our foreign policy should
emphasize defense against attack from abroad and enhance the likelihood of peace by avoiding
foreign entanglements. We would end the current U.S. government policy of foreign intervention,
including military and economic aid. We recognize the right of all people to resist tyranny and
defend themselves and their rights. We condemn the use of force, and especially the use of
terrorism, against the innocent, regardless of whether such acts are committed by governments or by
political or revolutionary groups.

3.4 Free Trade and Migration

We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape
from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the
crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human
as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into
our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.


3.5 Rights and Discrimination

We condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant. Government should not deny or abridge any individual's rights based on sex, wealth, race, color, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference or sexual orientation. Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs.

3.6 Representative Government

We support electoral systems that are more representative of the electorate at the federal, state and local levels. As private voluntary groups, political parties should be allowed to establish their own rules for nomination procedures, primaries and conventions. We call for an end to any tax-financed subsidies to candidates or parties and the repeal of all laws which restrict voluntary financing of election campaigns. We oppose laws that effectively exclude alternative candidates and parties, deny ballot access, gerrymander districts, or deny the voters their right to consider all legitimate alternatives.


3.7 Self-Determination

Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of individual liberty, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to agree to such new governance as to them shall seem most likely to protect their liberty.

4.0 Omissions

Our silence about any other particular government law, regulation, ordinance, directive, edict, control, regulatory agency, activity, or machination should not be construed to imply approval.

[Nimrod's Son]

what sections do you agree with? what sections do you disagree with?

[Future Boy]

is this an essay question

[Nimrod's Son]

it's a binary question like true/false:

3.1 agree
3.2 disagree

etc

[redbreegull]

I agree with the majority of it in a morally absolute sense that has little bearing on the real world

[Trotskilicious]

DIE YUPPIE SCUM

[redbreegull]

actually there's a lot of repulsive shit on there as well. this ideology is just an unfeasible in the real world as Marxism

[Trotskilicious]

MARXISM RULES

[redbreegull]

I think most of Marx's premises are correct, and some of his conclusions (i.e. murdering the ruling class) are not so great. However, in America, Marxism = Communism = Socialism = Fabianism = Welfare Programs. It's all the same to us!

[Trotskilicious]

yeah they all hate freedom!!!!

[redbreegull]

we made this thread about Marxism in less than ten replies. success?

[Order 66]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

1.0 Personal Liberty

Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. No individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government. Our support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that we necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices.

i agree ideologically. but if you wanted to follow this fundamentally you'd probably have to eliminate gov't or laws all together at some point

1.1 Expression and Communication

We support full freedom of expression and oppose government censorship, regulation or control of communications media and technology. We favor the freedom to engage in or abstain from any religious activities that do not violate the rights of others. We oppose government actions which either aid or attack any religion.

disagree about regulating technology. don't get me wrong i'd love if gov't stayed away form regulating the interwebz as much as possible but what about hacking and economic warfare? it may not seem like a big deal now but it's this century's version of the nuclear threat

1.2 Personal Privacy

Libertarians support the rights recognized by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons,
homes, and property. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure should ******* records held
by third parties, such as email, medical, and library records. Only actions that infringe on the rights
of others can properly be termed crimes. We favor the repeal of all laws creating “crimes” without
victims, such as the use of drugs for medicinal or recreational purposes.

agreed for the most part except about drugs. i'm not about to be for legalizing heroin and meth all of a sudden

1.3 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the
government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption,
immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or
restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices
and personal relationships.

it's adam and eve not adam and steve. maybe you wouldnt be so narrow minded if you cracked open a bible now and then

1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

i think the current legalities of abortion are good enough. not perfect, but i think it in essence is on the same page here

1.5 Crime and Justice

Government exists to protect the rights of every individual including life, liberty and property. Criminal laws should be limited to violation of the rights of others through force or fraud, or deliberate actions that place others involuntarily at significant risk of harm. Individuals retain the right to voluntarily assume risk of harm to themselves. We support restitution of the victim to the fullest degree possible at the expense of the criminal or the negligent wrongdoer. We oppose reduction of constitutional safeguards of the rights of the criminally accused. The rights of due process, a speedy trial, legal counsel, trial by jury, and the legal presumption of innocence until proven guilty, must not be denied. We assert the common-law right of juries to judge not only the facts but also the justice of the law.

agreed

1.6 Self-Defense

The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired
property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by
any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment
to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense.
We oppose all laws at any level of government requiring registration of, or restricting, the
ownership, manufacture, or transfer or sale of firearms or ammunition.

on an ideological level, i think guns should be banned for all except law enforcement. i think we should follow the example of countries like japan where only like 10 people die of firearms a year

but on pragmatic level, i know that isn't possible in america. i understand firearms are a part of our culture and history for better or worse. so in that sense i support the 2nd amendment. begrudgingly.

2.0 Economic Liberty

Libertarians want all members of society to have abundant opportunities to achieve economic
success. A free and competitive market allocates resources in the most efficient manner. Each
person has the right to offer goods and services to others on the free market. The only proper role of
government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a
legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to redistribute
wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society.

ten years ago i would've heartily agreed. but the '08 collapse completely changed the way i view gov't regulation of the market. in a way you could argue that it's violating one's rights NOT to regulate things like toxic CDOs because that could impact everybody on every level like it did three years ago

2.1 Property and Contract

Property rights are entitled to the same protection as all other human rights. The owners of property have the full right to control, use, dispose of, or in any manner enjoy, their property without interference, until and unless the exercise of their control infringes the valid rights of others. We oppose all controls on wages, prices, rents, profits, production, and interest rates. We advocate the repeal of all laws banning or restricting the advertising of prices, products, or services. We oppose all violations of the right to private property, liberty of contract, and freedom of trade. The right to trade includes the right not to trade — for any reasons whatsoever. Where property, including land, has been taken from its rightful owners by the government or private action in violation of individual rights, we favor restitution to the rightful owners.

seems more or less in line with the rights we have now, to me

2.2 Environment

We support a clean and healthy environment and sensible use of our natural resources. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Pollution and misuse of resources cause damage to our ecosystem. Governments, unlike private businesses, are unaccountable for such damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. We realize that our planet's climate is constantly changing, but environmental advocates and social pressure are the most effective means of changing public behavior.

hm? i think gov'ts should be evironmentally responsible as much as private enterprises. yes the EPA doesn't have the best track record but i don't think its as useless or tyrannical as its made out to be

2.3 Energy and Resources

While energy is needed to fuel a modern society, government should not be subsidizing any particular form of energy. We oppose all government control of energy pricing, allocation, and production.

nah gov't should do all it can to move onto a viable alternative energy. i'm not saying we should plaster the country with useless windmills or solar panels, but if technology is truly, legitimately there for a cleaner, more efficient energy i'm all for gov't nudging us in that direction, whether it be through subsidies or whatever. energy is tied into everything. our infrastructure and - no hyperbole here - mankind will sink or swim depending on what we'll do next in that regard

2.4 Government Finance and Spending

All persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes.

this is where this kind of ideology goes awry. i'm all for serious tax reform but if libertarians truly got their way with this we'd be mexico in less than five years. it costs money to keep this country going, despite some useless spending here and there

2.5 Money and Financial Markets

We favor free-market banking, with unrestricted competition among banks and depository
institutions of all types. Individuals engaged in voluntary exchange should be free to use as money
any mutually agreeable commodity or item. We support a halt to inflationary monetary policies and
unconstitutional legal tender laws.

not sure halting inflationary policies that would work alongside the globalizing economy.

2.6 Monopolies and Corporations

We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of companies based on voluntary association. We seek to divest government of all functions that can be provided by non-governmental organizations or private individuals. We oppose government subsidies to business, labor, or any other special interest. Industries should be governed by free markets.

2.7 Labor Markets

We support repeal of all laws which impede the ability of any person to find employment. We oppose government-fostered forced retirement. We support the right of free persons to associate or not associate in labor unions, and an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union. We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain.

there are two extremes in regards to labor. on one hand we can have five year olds working in coal mines, on the other hand you can have unions overplaying their hand which is wont to happen from time to time (kinda unrelated, but in countries like uganda unions are why unemployment is at 50% because horrible workers can get away with anything without getting fired). but i think to bust the unions through not recognizing them would abrogate alot of the progress we made on the latter part of the 20th century in this regard

2.8 Education

Education, like any other service, is best provided by the free market

no no no. if not for the fact privatizing education will simply make it unavailable to some

2.9 Health Care

We favor restoring and reviving a free market health care system. We recognize the freedom of
individuals to determine the level of health insurance they want, the level of health care they want,
the care providers they want, the medicines and treatments they will use and all other aspects of
their medical care, including end-of-life decisions. People should be free to purchase health
insurance across state lines.

i guess it should come as no surprise i'm for moving toward a single payer system. not going to open that can of worms though

2.10 Retirement and Income Security

Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would
phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private
voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts
of private groups and individuals. We believe members of society will become more charitable and
civil society will be strengthened as government reduces its activity in this realm.

all for serious reform of SS but leaving these matters to charities and volunteer groups is... negligent, to put it lightly

3.0 Securing Liberty

The protection of individual rights is the only proper purpose of government. Government is constitutionally limited so as to prevent the infringement of individual rights by the government itself. The principle of non-initiation of force should guide the relationships between governments.

i think the overall function of government is to facilitate society first and foremost.

3.1 National Defense

We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression.
The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as
policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.

agreed to an extent. we definitely need to roll back our involvement - but not be rigid isolationists either

3.2 Internal Security and Individual Rights

The defense of the country requires that we have adequate intelligence to detect and to counter
threats to domestic security. This requirement must not take priority over maintaining the civil
liberties of our citizens. The Constitution and Bill of Rights shall not be suspended even during time
of war. Intelligence agencies that legitimately seek to preserve the security of the nation must be
subject to oversight and transparency. We oppose the government's use of secret classifications to
keep from the public information that it should have, especially that which shows that the
government has violated the law.

agreed unless its a downright emergency like some alien parasite body snatcher war or something. i think lincoln did the right thing by suspending the constitution. tragedy it had to happen though

3.3 International Affairs

American foreign policy should seek an America at peace with the world. Our foreign policy should
emphasize defense against attack from abroad and enhance the likelihood of peace by avoiding
foreign entanglements. We would end the current U.S. government policy of foreign intervention,
including military and economic aid. We recognize the right of all people to resist tyranny and
defend themselves and their rights. We condemn the use of force, and especially the use of
terrorism, against the innocent, regardless of whether such acts are committed by governments or by
political or revolutionary groups.

see 3.1

3.4 Free Trade and Migration

We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape
from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the
crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human
as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into
our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.

agreed but i'm for regulations that would keep jobs from going overseas. not sure 'unrestricted movement' of 'financial capital' across nation borders is good policy in that regard. and wouldnt it encourage tax havens?

3.5 Rights and Discrimination

We condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant. Government should not deny or abridge any individual's rights based on sex, wealth, race, color, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference or sexual orientation. Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs.

disagree. what is white is always right

3.6 Representative Government

We support electoral systems that are more representative of the electorate at the federal, state and local levels. As private voluntary groups, political parties should be allowed to establish their own rules for nomination procedures, primaries and conventions. We call for an end to any tax-financed subsidies to candidates or parties and the repeal of all laws which restrict voluntary financing of election campaigns. We oppose laws that effectively exclude alternative candidates and parties, deny ballot access, gerrymander districts, or deny the voters their right to consider all legitimate alternatives.

agreed except for the part about restricting voluntary financing to campaigns. as imperfect as the current system is it does okay at preventing abuse (barring the courts decision to protect corporate contributions as 'free speech')

3.7 Self-Determination

Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of individual liberty, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to agree to such new governance as to them shall seem most likely to protect their liberty.

agreed, if by altering and abolishing it is by voting.

4.0 Omissions

Our silence about any other particular government law, regulation, ordinance, directive, edict, control, regulatory agency, activity, or machination should be construed to imply approval. For example, we have not mentioned any restrictions on such as child pornography, or fucking chickens. So interpret our reticence to mean we support these respective activities.

WTF

[duovamp]

There is a problem with the whole deal. I mean there's a strict adherence to the rules of the US govt set up by the Constitution. They're all about the damn Constitution. But yet the philosophy is opposed to governance. I see an inconsistency here, and that to me largely invalidates a belief system as being illogical.

[Trotskilicious]

VICTORY FOR THE VANGUARD

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by duovamp

There is a problem with the whole deal. I mean there's a strict adherence to the rules of the US govt set up by the Constitution. They're all about the damn Constitution. But yet the philosophy is opposed to governance. I see an inconsistency here, and that to me largely invalidates a belief system as being illogical.

A lot of libertarian minded people, the tea party only being the most extreme example, seem the believe that the Founding Fathers were in fact libertarians, or thought government should be absolutely as limited as possible... This just isn't really true. Some of the Framers thought sort of like this, but not all of them did.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

VICTORY FOR THE VANGUARD

oh I'm not down with lenin at all, lo siento

[Trotskilicious]

TRIUMPH OF THE WILL

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

I agree with the majority of it in a morally absolute sense that has little bearing on the real world

Originally Posted by redbreegull

actually there's a lot of repulsive shit on there as well. this ideology is just an unfeasible in the real world as Marxism

pick a horse

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by duovamp

There is a problem with the whole deal. I mean there's a strict adherence to the rules of the US govt set up by the Constitution. They're all about the damn Constitution. But yet the philosophy is opposed to governance. I see an inconsistency here, and that to me largely invalidates a belief system as being illogical.

This is far more Constitutionally viable than the Democrat or Republican platforms (or perhaps just more honest as they both love the PATRIOT act), but I'd like to se where you think this disagrees with the COnstitution. Not saying it doesn't just curious.

[redbreegull]

can't sleep, time to play the game

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

1.0 Personal Liberty

Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. No individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government. Our support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that we necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices.

we've had this argument many times but I don't believe people actually have choice in their actions, and at the very least are bound within certain pathways by their circumstances. So I have to reject that premise.

1.1 Expression and Communication

We support full freedom of expression and oppose government censorship, regulation or control of communications media and technology. We favor the freedom to engage in or abstain from any religious activities that do not violate the rights of others. We oppose government actions which either aid or attack any religion.

agree

1.2 Personal Privacy

Libertarians support the rights recognized by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons,
homes, and property. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure should ******* records held
by third parties, such as email, medical, and library records. Only actions that infringe on the rights
of others can properly be termed crimes. We favor the repeal of all laws creating “crimes” without
victims, such as the use of drugs for medicinal or recreational purposes.

agree, although most libertarians probably have a stricter idea of victimless crime than I do. By this I mean that some actions which do not do immediate harm to an individual human being may still have negative effects on society and could still be legitimately curtailed

1.3 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the
government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption,
immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or
restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices
and personal relationships.

agree

1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

agree halfway. The government should act to protect abortion rights when necessary, and this includes from the states

1.5 Crime and Justice

Government exists to protect the rights of every individual including life, liberty and property. Criminal laws should be limited to violation of the rights of others through force or fraud, or deliberate actions that place others involuntarily at significant risk of harm. Individuals retain the right to voluntarily assume risk of harm to themselves. We support restitution of the victim to the fullest degree possible at the expense of the criminal or the negligent wrongdoer. We oppose reduction of constitutional safeguards of the rights of the criminally accused. The rights of due process, a speedy trial, legal counsel, trial by jury, and the legal presumption of innocence until proven guilty, must not be denied. We assert the common-law right of juries to judge not only the facts but also the justice of the law.

agree except I'm not clear on what the author thinks the role of punishment in the legal system is. This is pretty similar to 1.2.

1.6 Self-Defense

The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired
property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by
any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment
to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense.
We oppose all laws at any level of government requiring registration of, or restricting, the
ownership, manufacture, or transfer or sale of firearms or ammunition.

disagree. Force is only legitimate defensively, but individual rights are not the only things sacred enough to use violence to protect. The well being of society, or a community is also important enough to use force against. Also force should not exceed what is absolutely necessary, i.e. it is very difficult to defend killing someone over a piece of property. The 2nd Amendment leaves quite a lot of room for interpretation, and although I respect the basic right to own a firearm, they should be much more carefully controlled than they are now. Anyone who thinks they need a gun to overthrow the government should tyranny fall is delusional. People should be able to own low power guns, nothing semiautomatic or automatic, and there should be a limit to how many guns a person may own. There is not really a reason anyone needs more guns than the number of people living in his or her household. Special police and the military should be the only US citizens with access to high power weapons.

2.0 Economic Liberty

Libertarians want all members of society to have abundant opportunities to achieve economic
success. A free and competitive market allocates resources in the most efficient manner. Each
person has the right to offer goods and services to others on the free market. The only proper role of
government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a
legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to redistribute
wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society.

Strongly disagree. The free market is a dilapidated tool which fails as often as it succeeds and adherence to it as if it were a physical law is nonsense. It has also failed abjectly in its prime goal, which is ostensibly to offer equal opportunity to everyone. The government should take a more active role in the economy to prevent suffering to both individuals and to society. A society is only as free as its most disenfranchised members, so as long as there is a homeless man on my corner who's freedom is to starve, freeze, and die poor, there is no legitimate freedom beyond that.

2.1 Property and Contract

Property rights are entitled to the same protection as all other human rights. The owners of property have the full right to control, use, dispose of, or in any manner enjoy, their property without interference, until and unless the exercise of their control infringes the valid rights of others. We oppose all controls on wages, prices, rents, profits, production, and interest rates. We advocate the repeal of all laws banning or restricting the advertising of prices, products, or services. We oppose all violations of the right to private property, liberty of contract, and freedom of trade. The right to trade includes the right not to trade — for any reasons whatsoever. Where property, including land, has been taken from its rightful owners by the government or private action in violation of individual rights, we favor restitution to the rightful owners.

Strongly disagree. No human can rightfully own a physical piece of the Earth and deny it to all others. People are entitled to the safety and security of their homes, but they do not have the literal right to posses a piece of ground exclusively. Also, this is different than other human rights because anyone can speak, practice religion, or protest. Owning property requires money, which not everyone can acquire, and since money is not considered to be a human right by this manifesto, property can't be either. Corporations are not human beings either. They should not enjoy human rights as they do not have thoughts, understandings, perceptions, hopes, fears, loves, wishes, and dreams. If corporations go unchecked, they will begin to erode rights (both of the society and of the individual) and not allowing the government to intervene will effectively destroy individual rights in the name of individual rights.

2.2 Environment

We support a clean and healthy environment and sensible use of our natural resources. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Pollution and misuse of resources cause damage to our ecosystem. Governments, unlike private businesses, are unaccountable for such damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. We realize that our planet's climate is constantly changing, but environmental advocates and social pressure are the most effective means of changing public behavior.

this one is a joke, right?

2.3 Energy and Resources

While energy is needed to fuel a modern society, government should not be subsidizing any particular form of energy. We oppose all government control of energy pricing, allocation, and production.

Disagree. As energy is fundamental for the most basic operations of modern society, the government must safeguard the public and itself from increasingly powerful energy corporations which can now hold a knife to the throat of the collective human race

2.4 Government Finance and Spending

All persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes.

Strongly disagree. Since resources are finite, what one person earns must be taken from another person, and the free market system helps to protect and enlarge the assets of the existing rich, which in turn lays heavier burdens on the backs of the poor. The rich could not be rich without the poor, because they depend on others having lesser resources to enshrine their power and influence. Taxes are the most effective way to keep the middle class large and a society healthy while reeling in the rich and propping up those who suffer in poverty. If taxes are levied fairly, everyone in a society should be able to live a comfortable life with access to necessities such as food, water, medicine, and shelter, and the government should be able to get its citizens access to these things if they cannot be procured by that person. The balanced budget amendment is preposterous.

2.5 Money and Financial Markets

We favor free-market banking, with unrestricted competition among banks and depository
institutions of all types. Individuals engaged in voluntary exchange should be free to use as money
any mutually agreeable commodity or item. We support a halt to inflationary monetary policies and
unconstitutional legal tender laws.

Disagree.

2.6 Monopolies and Corporations

We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of companies based on voluntary association. We seek to divest government of all functions that can be provided by non-governmental organizations or private individuals. We oppose government subsidies to business, labor, or any other special interest. Industries should be governed by free markets.

Disagree

2.7 Labor Markets

We support repeal of all laws which impede the ability of any person to find employment. We oppose government-fostered forced retirement. We support the right of free persons to associate or not associate in labor unions, and an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union. We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain.

Disagree

2.8 Education

Education, like any other service, is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Schools should be managed locally to achieve greater accountability and parental involvement. Recognizing that the education of children is inextricably linked to moral values, we would return authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. In particular, parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children's education.

This is 100% horseshit, possibly the worst thing in the entire document.

2.9 Health Care

We favor restoring and reviving a free market health care system. We recognize the freedom of
individuals to determine the level of health insurance they want, the level of health care they want,
the care providers they want, the medicines and treatments they will use and all other aspects of
their medical care, including end-of-life decisions. People should be free to purchase health
insurance across state lines.

Disagree, free market doesn't work properly and doesn't care for people adequately, especially when it comes to healthcare, which will be recognized as a civil right in the future despite the futile efforts of conservatives of all flavors everywhere.

2.10 Retirement and Income Security

Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would
phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private
voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts
of private groups and individuals. We believe members of society will become more charitable and
civil society will be strengthened as government reduces its activity in this realm.

Disagree strongly, this clause isn't good enough to wipe my ass with.

3.0 Securing Liberty

The protection of individual rights is the only proper purpose of government. Government is constitutionally limited so as to prevent the infringement of individual rights by the government itself. The principle of non-initiation of force should guide the relationships between governments.

There are other functions of government which I have already written about. The relationship between any two governments is totally unique and ultimately will defy all attempts to apply rules or social sciences to it, but yes, fundamentally I believe in complete non-aggression

3.1 National Defense

We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression.
The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as
policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.

Agree that we should maintain a military. Disagree about alliances, alliances are our best way forward in promoting global peace. As for being global police, the US has sometimes acted for good and sometimes for ill in this regard. Too complicated to say we absolutely should or shouldn't ever get involved in someone else's conflict.

3.2 Internal Security and Individual Rights

The defense of the country requires that we have adequate intelligence to detect and to counter
threats to domestic security. This requirement must not take priority over maintaining the civil
liberties of our citizens. The Constitution and Bill of Rights shall not be suspended even during time
of war. Intelligence agencies that legitimately seek to preserve the security of the nation must be
subject to oversight and transparency. We oppose the government's use of secret classifications to
keep from the public information that it should have, especially that which shows that the
government has violated the law.

Agree basically but it should be noted that the US would not exist right now if a certain 16th President hadn't broken the Constitution.

3.3 International Affairs

American foreign policy should seek an America at peace with the world. Our foreign policy should
emphasize defense against attack from abroad and enhance the likelihood of peace by avoiding
foreign entanglements. We would end the current U.S. government policy of foreign intervention,
including military and economic aid. We recognize the right of all people to resist tyranny and
defend themselves and their rights. We condemn the use of force, and especially the use of
terrorism, against the innocent, regardless of whether such acts are committed by governments or by
political or revolutionary groups.

Sort of agree, again the US government has intervened for good in the past and to ignore genocide or massacre is wrong. of course we can't fight every tragedy in the world, but when we can feasibly make a difference we should try

3.4 Free Trade and Migration

We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape
from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the
crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human
as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into
our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.

Disagree

3.5 Rights and Discrimination

We condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant. Government should not deny or abridge any individual's rights based on sex, wealth, race, color, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference or sexual orientation. Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs.

Basically correct. Parents should have to meet some standards though. The state does have the right to remove children in egregious environments. The right to raise a child how one sees fit does not extend to damaging that child physically or mentally.

3.6 Representative Government

We support electoral systems that are more representative of the electorate at the federal, state and local levels. As private voluntary groups, political parties should be allowed to establish their own rules for nomination procedures, primaries and conventions. We call for an end to any tax-financed subsidies to candidates or parties and the repeal of all laws which restrict voluntary financing of election campaigns. We oppose laws that effectively exclude alternative candidates and parties, deny ballot access, gerrymander districts, or deny the voters their right to consider all legitimate alternatives.

Yes except that campaign finance should be strictly controlled.

3.7 Self-Determination

Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of individual liberty, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to agree to such new governance as to them shall seem most likely to protect their liberty.

yeah but for the millionth time you guys have a fetish with the individual, you are ignoring the other side of the coin completely which is just as misguided as total collectivism

4.0 Omissions

Our silence about any other particular government law, regulation, ordinance, directive, edict, control, regulatory agency, activity, or machination should not be construed to imply approval.

hmm

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

pick a horse

I named mine Boxer.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

pick a horse

As I read it, I kept wanting to agree because in a basic sense I do agree with a lot of the stuff in there. Pretty much every section has something I agreed with. But almost every clause has something which I also really disagree with, so it is hard to say I really concur with anything in there.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

A lot of libertarian minded people, the tea party only being the most extreme example, seem the believe that the Founding Fathers were in fact libertarians, or thought government should be absolutely as limited as possible... This just isn't really true. Some of the Framers thought sort of like this, but not all of them did.

uh ok buddy boy, the tea party are not an "extreme" example of libertarians, as they only seem to pick and choose a couple of things they like and then throw in a ton of other nonsense. ask how many tea party candidates how they feel about abortion.

seriously why doesn't anyone else ever call this guy on his child-like bullshit

[Nimrod's Son]

letters from batshitville:

Originally Posted by redbreegull

we've had this argument many times but I don't believe people actually have choice in their actions


as long as there is a homeless man on my corner who's freedom is to starve, freeze, and die poor, there is no legitimate freedom beyond that.

No human can rightfully own a physical piece of the Earth and deny it to all others.

the government must safeguard the public and itself from increasingly powerful energy corporations which can now hold a knife to the throat of the collective human race

Since resources are finite, what one person earns must be taken from another person

The rich could not be rich without the poor, because they depend on others having lesser resources to enshrine their power and influence.

If taxes are levied fairly, everyone in a society should be able to live a comfortable life with access to necessities such as food, water, medicine, and shelter, and the government should be able to get its citizens access to these things if they cannot be procured by that person.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

uh ok buddy boy, the tea party are not an "extreme" example of libertarians, as they only seem to pick and choose a couple of things they like and then throw in a ton of other nonsense. ask how many tea party candidates how they feel about abortion.

seriously why doesn't anyone else ever call this guy on his child-like bullshit

everyone gives me a hard time here but it's not surprising that your head is so far up your own ass that you have no idea what is going on with other people. The tea party surly count as "libertarian minded," and even if you don't think they do, they still masquerade under that banner. They are the most vocal group advocating libertarianism in the US, which is what I meant by an extreme example. It's not my fault your ideology is bait for the stupidest, most selfish faction of society.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

letters from batshitville:

you only think that because you were raised in a society that thinks that. You are narrow minded and that is why you are unable to understand that it is not the only possible way

[redbreegull]

I mean what exactly is your problem with those things? You think resources are infinite? You believe in free will which is pretty much a spiritual concept not backed by any scientific evidence? You think energy corporations are here to serve the public as best they can? Seriously, you are the one living in false reality, and also about 2 centuries in the past

[dean_r_koontz]

I think this libertarian thing would have worked decently in the 18th century.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

you only think that because you were raised in a society that thinks that. You are narrow minded and that is why you are unable to understand that it is not the only possible way

no i think in every society people understand fundamentally that people actually do have responsibility for their actions

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

You believe in free will which is pretty much a spiritual concept not backed by any scientific evidence?

really thank you for proving my point for me