It's official: Texas just set the US education system back 40 years

[Luke's Wall]

Originally Posted by Order 66

I like how having a different point of view makes you a "troll"

Tell me about it... yes, let's get the feds involed, that'll surely fix everything.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by jczeroman

So that we can get a radical right-wing ideologue president and he can remove key educational material from ALL textbooks. Are you mad?

i would guess that a national curriculum wouldn't be shaped by a single person.

[Corganist]

Isn't the whole problem people have with this is that what Texas decides affects everyone? How does putting it all under federal control solve the problem? All you do in that case is just switch out who is making the decisions for everyone, but you don't necessarily improve the decisions. I think the better solution is to dilute Texas's influence on the textbook market (i.e. by other states not rolling over and buying Texas textbooks if they don't like them), not to shift the power into different hands. That much power in the hands of any small group, federal or not, is a recipe for disaster.

Plus, one shouldn't have to point out just how insane the whole idea of the federal government approving what version of history it's okay for local level schools to teach sounds.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Corganist

Isn't the whole problem people have with this is that what Texas decides affects everyone? How does putting it all under federal control solve the problem? All you do in that case is just switch out who is making the decisions for everyone, but you don't necessarily improve the decisions. I think the better solution is to dilute Texas's influence on the textbook market (i.e. by other states not rolling over and buying Texas textbooks if they don't like them), not to shift the power into different hands. That much power in the hands of any small group, federal or not, is a recipe for disaster.

Plus, one shouldn't have to point out just how insane the whole idea of the federal government approving what version of history it's okay for local level schools to teach sounds.

the larger and more representative sample you draw from, the more moderate and reasonable proposals would become. i think that's fairy obvious. in terms of how such a system would be carried out in practice, i have no fucking idea.

but even aside from the idiocy of having texas affect the rest of the country, i also think it's unfortunate that kids can potentially receive shit educations because we get our rocks off talking about the functionality of local politics.

[jczeroman]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

i would guess that a national curriculum wouldn't be shaped by a single person.

Eulogy, think about this in anything else. You are just going to make a single point where ideologues can lobby, corrupt, buy and impose their will on ALL children in the most powerful country on earth. You think this is going to be done by a well meaning council of do-gooders? Have you ever seen what happens in congress or the senate? Hello?

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by jczeroman

Eulogy, think about this in anything else. You are just going to make a single point where ideologues can lobby, corrupt, buy and impose their will on ALL children in the most powerful country on earth. You think this is going to be done by a well meaning council of do-gooders? Have you ever seen what happens in congress or the senate? Hello?

but the free market would ensure that do-gooders who are only concerned with quality education are the ones making the decision

i think i get it

[duovamp]

The cheapest education for the highest price will surely get America back on top.

[Nimrod's Son]

I'm curious why you bolder the part about the constitutional republic. Perhaps gish08 is the one who needs the history lesson.

[Trotskilicious]

CE and BCE are fucking stupid anyway, i mean the birth of Christ is still the change over from BCE to CE so what's the goddamn difference other than some annoying letters?

and unfortunately i'm finding myself agreeing with nimrod, america is a constitutional republic.

[Trotskilicious]

also glad you bolded the histrionics from the ACLU. can you not cut through BS or are you a troll, gish

[jczeroman]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

but the free market would ensure that do-gooders who are only concerned with quality education are the ones making the decision

i think i get it

Let's not derail this. Think about what I am saying about the nature of consolidating power.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

CE and BCE are fucking stupid anyway, i mean the birth of Christ is still the change over from BCE to CE so what's the goddamn difference other than some annoying letters?

and unfortunately i'm finding myself agreeing with nimrod, america is a constitutional republic.

Sure, but I can't help but think that they're less concerned with historical accuracy and more concerned with positive connotations surrounding the word "democratic." But perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic with that. hah.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by jczeroman

Let's not derail this. Think about what I am saying about the nature of consolidating power.

Power is going to be consolidated no matter what system is in place. I am in favor of consolidating it on a larger scale, which in turn moderates whatever gets done. I don't think it's right to enable states to control the educations of their children when it can make them less competitive with children in their own country. If whatever gets done effects the entire country, than the odds of instituting crazy educational policies decreases. I'm not really sure how bad whatever just happened in Texas is, but the potential for the complete bastardization of education is surely there right now. I'm not really sure how you think that should be fixed, as a total reliance on the market would do away with any sort of base level of quality that has to be reached.

[jczeroman]

holy moly, I give up.

[Floppy Nono]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

Sure, but I can't help but think that they're less concerned with historical accuracy and more concerned with positive connotations surrounding the word "democratic." But perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic with that. hah.

weren't the democrats in control of this ability before the republicans? if so, then is it safe to theorize that perhaps the democrats included the incorrect description of our government for their own positive connotations and it is just now being adopted to the correct term so American's don't grow up not understanding what their government really is?

[Floppy Nono]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

If whatever gets done effects the entire country, than the odds of instituting crazy educational policies decreases.

if that were true then we wouldn't be having this problem in the first place over the curriculum of one state lol.

i'm not trying to attack you or something here eulogy. i am just sort of confused by your logic here.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by jczeroman

holy moly, I give up.

that was quick.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Floppy Nono

if that were true then we wouldn't be having this problem in the first place over the curriculum of one state lol.

i'm not trying to attack you or something here eulogy. i am just sort of confused by your logic here.

we're talking about two completely different problems. one is that the market based text book sales dictate that large markets, who are only supposed to control their own state, end up controlling the entire country. i am saying that the TEXAS BOARD OF EDUCATION shouldn't be able to decide on a curriculum for its own state. and that if it wasn't only the texas board making the curriculum, then the curriculum would be more moderate. the fact that the texas board affects the rest of the nation is a different conversation about a completely different thing.

sorry if nuanced discussions are difficult for you.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Floppy Nono

weren't the democrats in control of this ability before the republicans? if so, then is it safe to theorize that perhaps the democrats included the incorrect description of our government for their own positive connotations and it is just now being adopted to the correct term so American's don't grow up not understanding what their government really is?

uhhh i guess but it doesn't take too much effort to see that america has often been referred to, in history, as a "democracy." or at least a nation in which "democracy" is practiced. see: tocqueville

[Floppy Nono]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

we're talking about two completely different problems. one is that the market based text book sales dictate that large markets, who are only supposed to control their own state, end up controlling the entire country. i am saying that the TEXAS BOARD OF EDUCATION shouldn't be able to decide on a curriculum for its own state. and that if it wasn't only the texas board making the curriculum, then the curriculum would be more moderate. the fact that the texas board affects the rest of the nation is a different conversation about a completely different thing.

sorry if nuanced discussions are difficult for you.

but how would this be any different if the federal government controlled all the states curriculum? how can it be assured that they would not make the same mistakes made here? to me it seems the problem is that there is too much power over the curriculum of the country in one place and i don't see how shifting it to another level of government will fix it.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Floppy Nono

but how would this be any different if the federal government controlled all the states curriculum? how can it be assured that they would not make the same mistakes made here? to me it seems the problem is that there is too much power over the curriculum of the country in one place and i don't see how shifting it to another level of government will fix it.

because, as i already pointed out, the larger the pool is that is drawn from, the more moderate views will be presented. this is why nancy pelosi will never lose in her district but could never be president. this is not a difficult concept.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by jczeroman

holy moly, I give up.

I wish i could believe that, really, I do.

[Floppy Nono]

but how can you be so sure that moderate views will be the ones that make it into the text book/curriculum and not just the views of the party in power?

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

because, as i already pointed out, the larger the pool is that is drawn from, the more moderate views will be presented. this is why nancy pelosi will never lose in her district but could never be president. this is not a difficult concept.

Texas is one of the most populous states in the Union. So if your theory holds true, then why aren't their textbook standards more moderate since they're catering to such a large and diverse population?

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by duovamp

Speaking of which... Where Trots been at?

THIS QUESTION HAS NOT BEEN ANSWERED.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Corganist

Texas is one of the most populous states in the Union. So if your theory holds true, then why aren't their textbook standards more moderate since they're catering to such a large and diverse population?

does texas represent the entire country?

no.

your argument only holds water if you feel that the population of texas draws a sample that is representative of the american population. it doesn't. so shut up.

[killtrocity]

. nvm pointless

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Floppy Nono

but how can you be so sure that moderate views will be the ones that make it into the text book/curriculum and not just the views of the party in power?

i mean if you wanna keep moving the goal lines i guess that's cool.

as i have said about 100 times in this thread, national politicians are always, ALWAYS, more moderate than local ones. see: how obama hasn't dragged us into communist hell and how after 8 years of GWB, we're still pretty much the same country we were beforehand. in this system, moderation and slowness rule. how have you not recognized that.

[Eulogy]

also, i'll give up here when jczeroman admits that his views are even more fringey and impractical than mine.

[cocksure]

Originally Posted by jczeroman

(...)even it it were the overwhelming view of the people (which it never would be).

um so how serious are you about this whole anarcho-capitalist revolution thing? you think people are never going to want it but you still think they should want it or something? is this some kind of reverse leninism