founding of usa and the involvment of religion

[severin]

while reading the cairo speech by obama i stumbled upon his mentioning of the treaty of tripoli and i remembered that this came up in dawkins "the god delusion" as well. obama quoted the same part, with leaving out the first sentence, which, for me, is seems at elast equally interesting:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

this treaty has been ratified by congress unanonimously...shouldn't this be enough to silence the christian right which claims that the usa where founded on christian principles?

[peabody]

hehe silence the christian right

[Mo]

I'd like to take a minute and throw in these quotes:


"Lighthouses are more useful than Churches" - Benjamin Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it" - John Adams

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" - Thomas Jefferson


Thank you, and good night.

[severin]

Originally Posted by peabody

hehe silence the christian right

yeah i know, but i'd love to see the reaction in a televised debate, when you throw them this quote of the founding fathers

[Debaser]

facts don't matter to some people

[JokeyLoki]

And yet, just the other day, Obama referred to the US as one of the largest Muslim nations in the world.

If you don't want to put a religious label on the US, fine, but be consistent.

[topleybird]

It's also one of the largest, I don't know, Mexican nations in the world

That doesn't make the United States government a Mexican government or one founded upon Mexican principles

I mean holy shit

[ravenguy2000]

Originally Posted by JokeyLoki

And yet, just the other day, Obama referred to the US as one of the largest Muslim nations in the world.

If you don't want to put a religious label on the US, fine, but be consistent.

even your avatar thinks you're retarded

[ravenguy2000]

Originally Posted by severin

shouldn't this be enough to silence the christian right which claims that the usa where founded on christian principles?

Basically what Debaser said. The christian right doesn't make that claim because it's historically accurate, they make the claim because they want to justify they're own personal biases by selectively quoting fairytale books and making up things about the founding fathers.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by antipop

I'd like to take a minute and throw in these quotes:


"Lighthouses are more useful than Churches" - Benjamin Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it" - John Adams

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" - Thomas Jefferson


Thank you, and good night.

Context is a little important here. Historical revisionists pull that piece out of Adams to change its meaning.

John Adams
The second President (or tenth if you consider John Hanson the first) wrote to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813:

• The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature.

However, Adams is often quoted as saying, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!" However, here's the complete quote in an April 19, 1817, letter to Thomas Jefferson:

• Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.

As a Unitarian, Adams flatly denied the doctrine of eternal punishment believing all would eventually enter heaven. (Many Unitarians reject the Trinity and most accept all religions as valid expressions of faith.) But being a good Unitarian, he was certainly open to the teachings of Christ

• Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men. . . . The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart (Letter to F.A. Van Der Kemp, December 27, 1816).

During Adam's administration the Senate ratified the 1797 Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." Some view this as "a smoking gun" that America was not founded as a Christian nation, while others argue that it was simply a concession to the Muslim nation (when the treaty was renegotiated eight years later, Article XI was dropped).

Jefferson was a pretty blatant agnostic.

Franklin wasn't a Christian per se, but he was religious.

Benjamin Franklin
In his autobiography, Franklin describes himself as "a thorough Deist." "I began to be regarded, by pious souls, with horror, either as an apostate or an Atheist."
According to a Deist publication, a Deist is "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason." Deists reject the Judeo-Christian accounts of God as well as the Bible. They do believe that God is eternal and good, but flatly reject having a relationship with Him through Christ.
Franklin certainly believed in the providence of God. In his famous speech to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on June 28, 1787:

• I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God governs in the affairs of men... If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground unseen by him, is it probable an empire could arise without his aid? I firmly believe this, and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building not better than the builders of Babel.

Just five months before his death, he wrote to Dr. Stiles, the President of Yale, who had questioned Franklin about his faith:

• I believe in one God, the Creator of the universe; that he governs it by his Providence; that be ought to be worshipped; that the. most acceptable service we can render to him is doing good to his other children; that the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points of all sound religion, and I regard them as you do, in whatever sect I meet with them. As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think his system of morals and his religion, as be left them to us, the best the world ever saw, or is like to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it.

[ravenguy2000]

Although that copy/paste job Jefferson did on the Bible sounds pretty rad.

[dudehitscar]

I wouldn't care if Jesus himself came here and began the United States. I will still fight the mixing of religion and politics no matter what.


Oh shit your great grandpa believed in witches.. well then we should continue with the witch hunt!! I don't care it's 2089 now. Thou shall not suffer a witch to live bitch!

[redbreegull]

Anyone who is not a complete idiot would already know that the US was founded on Enlightenment ideals and not Christian ones. People who claim the contrary are already too fucking gone to bother with.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by JokeyLoki

And yet, just the other day, Obama referred to the US as one of the largest Muslim nations in the world.

If you don't want to put a religious label on the US, fine, but be consistent.

ugh

how is this still happening

i hope for your sake you were kidding.

[redbreegull]

I initially was going to overlook that jokeyloki comment but I can't let it go. Sorry jokey, that was fucking STUPID thing to say.

[Toast]

Not only were the Founders a bunch of hardcore, grizzled bastards, they were immensely intelligent. Their gift to us was a near perfect constitution and a free republic, and we have all but pissed it away.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by Toast

Not only were the Founders a bunch of hardcore, grizzled bastards, they were immensely intelligent. Their gift to us was a near perfect constitution and a free republic, and we have all but pissed it away.

I think that is an awfully silly thing to say. We have one of the most stable and well-founded governments in the history of the world and it still works miraculously well.

[Thaniel Buckner]

i wish i could go back in time and stake out plymouth rock with an AK47

[Trotskilicious]

hahaha jokey loki

[JokeyLoki]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

hahaha jokey loki

Thank you for getting it.

I apparently suck at sarcasm on the internet.

[Trotskilicious]

easy for you to say that after the fact

[28if]

I don't think he was laughing at your joke, I think he was laughing at what an idiot you are.

[JokeyLoki]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

easy for you to say that after the fact

I figured it was obvious since it was after Debaser's "facts don't matter to some people" statement.

I really could give a crap what religion he is, or what religion anyone else is, or what religious label people want to put on the US. It's kind of a silly, pointless argument that some people take WAY too seriously.

[Gish08]

Originally Posted by antipop

I'd like to take a minute and throw in these quotes:


"Lighthouses are more useful than Churches" - Benjamin Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it" - John Adams

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" - Thomas Jefferson


Thank you, and good night.

God Bless America!

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Gish08

God Bless America!

You really do just read what you want to see.