GM's Problems are 50 Years in the Making

[Trotskilicious]

gm may sell more cars, but it doesn't seem to matter much. I mean, when you operate with all those companies for as long as they have, they're going to have redundant employees that are being paid full benefits and what not. It's just too big. It's counter productive. They have more cars and sell more cars, but they've fucked their own ass by narrowing the margins because of the corporate structure (and for reference I consider the corporate structure to be everything from the CEO down, benefits, wages, pensions, etc). I don't see how this conflicts with anything in the article. I mean it's the largest US Automaker and also the one in the most trouble, there is a connection there. And no, I don't think I ever said it was management vs. labor, good v. evil. Assumptions.

toyota is the largest auto maker in the world, i don't see how they're doing "everything" wrong. I suppose that was your only major criticism of what I was saying, and that's fair enough, but every company is going to have failures and disasters but I'm saying that Toyota is more streamlined and efficient than GM, but it's not a exactly a fair comparison since they're Japanese and have different rules for benefits and legacy cost. Ford is more streamlined than GM too but I didn't really talk about them much because their cars were such absolute shite in the 90s.

[ryan patrick]

i figured this thead got bumped for this:

GM told to prep for bankruptcy filing: report

WASHINGTON, April 12 (Reuters ) – The U.S. Treasury Department is directing General Motors to lay the groundwork for a bankruptcy filing by June 1, even though the automaker has publicly stated it could reorganize outside of court, The New York Times reported on Sunday.

GM is operating under emergency U.S. government loans. It has been told by the Obama administration's task force overseeing its bailout that it must cut costs and reduce its debts in order to continue to receive aid.

The White House-appointed autos task force has given GM 60 days to come up with a restructuring plan and it is trying to determine whether the automaker can be a viable company.

Quoting sources who had been briefed on the GM plans, the Times said the goal was to prepare for a fast "surgical" bankruptcy.

The newspaper said preparations are aimed at assuring a GM bankruptcy filing is ready if the company is unable to reach agreement with bondholders to exchange roughly $28 billion in debt into equity in GM and with the United Automobile Workers union.

A plan under consideration would create a new company that would buy the "good" assets of GM after the carmaker files for bankruptcy, the Times said.

Less desirable assets, including unwanted brands, factories and health care obligations, would be left in the old company, which could be liquidated over several years, according to the paper.

Treasury officials are examining one potential outcome in which the viable GM enters and exits bankruptcy protection in as little as two weeks, using $5 billion to $7 billion in federal financing, a person briefed on the matter told the Times.

The Times sources declined to be identified because they were not authorized to discuss the process. Both GM and Treasury Department officials declined to comment, the newspaper said.

Last week, GM's chief executive said the automaker wanted to restructure out of court, but also preparing for a bankruptcy filing.

[gurr8]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

gm may sell more cars, but it doesn't seem to matter much.

It matters when one argues that GM is in trouble because "nobody wants to buy their cars". How can we continue a debate if that foundational assumption is so blatantly wrong? Anyway, I'm aware that duovamp said that, not you.

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

toyota is the largest auto maker in the world, i don't see how they're doing "everything" wrong. I suppose that was your only major criticism of what I was saying, and that's fair enough, but every company is going to have failures and disasters but I'm saying that Toyota is more streamlined and efficient than GM, but it's not a exactly a fair comparison since they're Japanese and have different rules for benefits and legacy cost.

Agreed. Although Toyota built more cars than GM last year, they still haven't sold more cars than GM in a year (that will definitely come). If they're both tops in the world, clearly neither of them has done 'everything' wrong.

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by gurr8

The article is fantastic - and this post is off-topic...But I can't sit here and read this drivel without responding to it.
If it's at all relevant, I've been in the car business for five years selling import cars: I have little love for GM...




If you read about Toyota, you'll realize that nobody has been making more mistakes in the USA market over the past couple of years.
For example:
-Building huge capacity and totally mis-reading the market that resulted in a year-and-a-half old truck plant being mothballed
-the Mississippi plant* that was going to build Highlanders (until the SUV market crashed) so they began modifying it to build Priuses (until the hybrid market crashed) so now the plant is mothballed.
-Two years ago Toyota was pushing it's Tundra line of (shitty)** full-size pickup trucks while GM was pushing it's Volt. This was just before gas prices went into ludicrous speed.



GM sells more cars*** than any other automotive manufacturer. "If you're (sic) familiar with the automotive business, you'd know this."


GM has done more to improve their product and make it more relevant than nearly any company (with the exception of Ford). Toyota has been doing everything wrong, they just have the cash reserves (for now) to weather the storm and hopefully not make any more mistakes as huge as the ones that they have made.
What pisses me off is not how wrong you are about these things, but how certain and condescending you are from your position! ("if you read..."; "if you're familiar...you'd know this...") This isn't a simple battle of good v. evil and neither of you would have the first clue about running these companies. It's a tad more complex than you're making it out to be.

One final point...these companies are suffering far more than they should because somewhere along the line they tried to use predictions and focus groups to figure out what consumers are going to want...An impossible task with a product as slow and expensive to produce as an automobile. Successful companies don't try to meet demand, they create demand.

[/threadjack]

The article is bang on 100%. It would be nice to see more thoughtful analysis like this during the economic crisis.

*Toyota delays Mississippi Prius plant indefinitely - USATODAY.com
**YouTube - Ford F150 vs Chevy vs Toyota - Bed Bounce
***Auto Sales - Markets Data Center - WSJ.com

What's with the (sic)?

Also GM's market share is plummeting, and has been. Oh and: Toyota outsells GM worldwide in first half - USATODAY.com

If you're familiar with the automotive business, you'd know this, you pathetic GM fanboy.

[duovamp]

World?s Largest Automaker is Now Toyota Not GM : Automotive Addicts

I can go on, if you like.

[Trotskilicious]

...uh GM's still #2 dude.

[duovamp]

REPORT: GM already has nearly two year supply of Pontiac G3

. In the course of doing some research, writer Neal Boudette discovered that GM has 3,479 unsold G3 units clogging up its dealers and vacant lots. Combined with the knowledge that dealers sold just 141 units of the car in March (or one unit for every 19 of GM's 2,700 Pontiac stores), that means that GM has a supply of these Chevrolet Aveo5 twins that will last them 617 days, meaning that if the automaker stopped building new units, they would still have a supply that would last them until December 16, 2010.

Like I said, nobody wants to buy their shitty cars.

[Trotskilicious]

look up chevy

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

look up chevy

By The Numbers -- Autoblog

[duovamp]

March: Toyota outsold Chevy in the US
February: Toyota outsold Chevy in the US
January: Toyota outsold Chevy in the US

2009 is lookin' good!

[duovamp]

I mean check out their percentage of sales decreases from previous years. Bigger than anyone's.

[ryan patrick]

wow, Kia, Hyundai, & Subaru are doing great

[Trotskilicious]

Hyundai must be doing good because of F.O.L. amirite

[Trotskilicious]

lol @ hummer

fuck those things are a joke

good ol' gm

"lets make the biggest, most wasteful piece of shit ever."
"sounds great, will really appeal to the wastes of life demographic."

[Trotskilicious]

boy audi's doing well in the luxury category, which seems to have 40-50% drops across the board other than BMW and Acura

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by ryan patrick

wow, Kia, Hyundai, & Subaru are doing great

You can't do worse than flat-lining, that's why.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

lol @ hummer

fuck those things are a joke

good ol' gm

"lets make the biggest, most wasteful piece of shit ever."
"sounds great, will really appeal to the wastes of life demographic."

GM just acquired the brand recently, right? Still an idiotic move, just a different kind.

[sppunk]

Toyota's North American cars are basically shit, fyi. We have a Rav4 built in Japan and you can feel the quality difference over the NA models.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

GM just acquired the brand recently, right?

i don't think so

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

i don't think so

they acquired it in 1999.

[Trotskilicious]

that was a decade ago man

i dunno how that qualifies as "recent"

[duovamp]

Depends on your definition of recently.

[Ever]

I'm recent

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

that was a decade ago man

i dunno how that qualifies as "recent"

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!

[dudehitscar]

so how about that Chrysler/Fiat deal? Looks like it's a no go unless the union decides to give up some major shit. It will be interesting to see if Obama gives in and bails them out or if he will let it fail after telling them they haven't provided a sustainable plan out of the crisis they are in.

[duovamp]

Chrysler's trying to use Fiat here to make a point, and a dumb one at that. Chrysler recently unscrewed every other lightbulb in their headquarters.

Cerberus should've dismantled them last year while they had the chance.

[gurr8]

Originally Posted by duovamp

Toyota outsells GM worldwide in first half - USATODAY.com
If you're familiar with the automotive business, you'd know this, you pathetic GM fanboy.

How mature of you! I must admit that I thought Toyota had only out-produced GM in a year. But in fact they have outsold GM for a full year. They're the top auto company. You can now say that GM sold 8.35 million cars and 'nobody wants their cars'. Congrats!

Originally Posted by duovamp

March: Toyota outsold Chevy in the US
February: Toyota outsold Chevy in the US
January: Toyota outsold Chevy in the US

2009 is lookin' good!

Ah, I now see that this is about the fact that you're a pathetic Toyota fanboy.

Just to clarify:
March: GM outsold Toyota in the US
February: GM outsold Toyota in the US
January: GM outsold Toyota in the US


By your logic, nobody wants Toyota cars.

[xtal]

what do you have against the japanese anyway corganist

[Andrew_Pakula]

Originally Posted by dudehitscar

so how about that Chrysler/Fiat deal? Looks like it's a no go unless the union decides to give up some major shit. It will be interesting to see if Obama gives in and bails them out or if he will let it fail after telling them they haven't provided a sustainable plan out of the crisis they are in.

Given that it is the 19th of the month already it doesn't look like its going to happen. Fiat wants major (but reasonable) concessions from the unions in the U.S. and Canada but in the case of Canada the union is refusing to concede anything.

If anything is going to happen for Chrysler it has to happen this week. Looks like bankruptcy though, bond holders wont budge and neither will the union, both will lose out in the end.

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by gurr8

How mature of you! I must admit that I thought Toyota had only out-produced GM in a year. But in fact they have outsold GM for a full year. They're the top auto company. You can now say that GM sold 8.35 million cars and 'nobody wants their cars'. Congrats!




Ah, I now see that this is about the fact that you're a pathetic Toyota fanboy.

Just to clarify:
March: GM outsold Toyota in the US
February: GM outsold Toyota in the US
January: GM outsold Toyota in the US


By your logic, nobody wants Toyota cars.

Glad to see you admit you're an idiot who can't understand either hyperbole OR simple fact, namely that Toyota has crushed GM for quite some time now.

I still think you're a GM fanboy, nobody in his right mind would defend such a company except for fanboys. I can't say I'm a Toyota fan at all, however, so much as someone who just wants idiots like you to get their facts straight.