Israel vs. Hamas

sppunk · 12-30-2008, 10:56 AM

This is Hezbollah vs. Lebanon all over again, unless Israel wants to actually win and eradicate Hamas completely (ie carpet bomb Palestine).

Trotskilicious · 12-30-2008, 12:42 PM

It's weird how people still aren't getting the fact that bombing a country only creates more terrorists.

sppunk · 12-30-2008, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

It's weird how people still aren't getting the fact that bombing a country only creates more terrorists.

I've never heard anyone say this isn't the case?

Trotskilicious · 12-30-2008, 01:41 PM

Well it certainly hasn't stopped nation states from executing military actions against terrorist organizations by BOMBING THE FUCK OUT OF ANOTHER NATION STATE.

I mean yes, everyone agrees with me right? A rational, obvious thing to say: wide scale military operations carried out against a nation, endangering the lives of innocents and children, instead of the terrorist organization because you're too lazy and cheap to actually take security and police actions seriously creates terrorists. Simple concept, yeah. It is. Except Israel and many of its citizens don't get it at all, apparently.

Neither does America, for that matter.

Trotskilicious · 12-30-2008, 01:46 PM

I mean think about what would happen if instead of just trying to beef up security and go into peace talks and ferret out the high ranking organizers of the IRA Britain just bombed the living fuck out of Ireland. I mean that would just be a great big mess, wouldn't it? Obviously. Jesus Christ.

And yes, Israel's done all this, but continues to act as if shooting missiles at their neighbors shouldn't set back the arduous peace process. They exist in this total vacuum where they act like there are no consequences with their actions and rather than realizing that this shit takes decades of honest-to-god sacrifice they'd rather shoot missiles at their neighbors because, after all, the United States has their back no matter how obnoxious and awful they are.

jczeroman · 12-30-2008, 04:19 PM

Israel should be wiped off the map.

rolmos · 12-30-2008, 06:50 PM

This.

Nimrod's Son · 12-30-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jczeroman

Israel should be wiped off the map.

Why stop there? Let's wipe all of the theocracies.

dudehitscar · 12-30-2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

I mean think about what would happen if instead of just trying to beef up security and go into peace talks and ferret out the high ranking organizers of the IRA Britain just bombed the living fuck out of Ireland. I mean that would just be a great big mess, wouldn't it? Obviously. Jesus Christ.

And yes, Israel's done all this, but continues to act as if shooting missiles at their neighbors shouldn't set back the arduous peace process. They exist in this total vacuum where they act like there are no consequences with their actions and rather than realizing that this shit takes decades of honest-to-god sacrifice they'd rather shoot missiles at their neighbors because, after all, the United States has their back no matter how obnoxious and awful they are.

beef curtains · 12-31-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

Why stop there? Let's wipe all of the theocracies.

I'm all for it.

redbreegull · 12-31-2008, 06:49 PM

I think the attitude our generation has towards Israel is pretty different than what our parents' generation sees. I know a lot of younger people that view Israel as a rogue state, or think it is just as bad as Palestine, but I don't think I have ever heard anyone of my parents' age express this view. My father is Jewish but always talks about how much he disdains all organized religion and learned to hate Judaism because of all the religious schooling he was forced to endure as a child, and he will still argue with me bitterly that Israel has an absolute right to exist and to protect itself and that I just don't understand.

Trotskilicious · 12-31-2008, 08:34 PM

My parents are in their mid sixties and they agree with me

JokeyLoki · 12-31-2008, 09:03 PM

What was Israel supposed to do? Hamas ripped up the cease fire and launched rockets into them.

I guess they should just say "Oh well" and take it.

Trotskilicious · 12-31-2008, 09:42 PM

Hamas is a terrorist organization not a nation state.

Refer to the IRA example I mentioned above. The IRA has a political wing called Sinn Fein that carries seats in Irish Parliament.

28if · 01-01-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

My parents are in their mid sixties and they agree with me

Oh well in that case!

I think it's a combination of what redbull was talking about and just the general popular opinion in the US shifting a little further away from the whole unconditional positive regard for Israel of the past. That said, I still know plenty of people who stand behind Israel no matter what.

I agree with what Trots is saying about the difference between a nation and a terrorist group. This is basically why the war in Iraq failed. You can't fight an organization (or idea/belief, for that matter) the same way you would fight a nation state. A significant number of Middle Easterners associate much more with their religious or ethnic group than the country they reside in. The Bush administration just refuses to accept that.

Banana · 01-01-2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jczeroman

Israel should be wiped off the map.

Trotskilicious · 01-01-2009, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 28if

I agree with what Trots is saying about the difference between a nation and a terrorist group. This is basically why the war in Iraq failed. You can't fight an organization (or idea/belief, for that matter) the same way you would fight a nation state.

Oh wow.

Um. That wasn't about the war on terror. I know they made it seem like it was, but it was not. It was a traditional war against a nation-state with a dictator...

then it all went to hell and they said something about Al-Qaeda and it worked, apparently...

28if · 01-01-2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

Um. That wasn't about the war on terror. I know they made it seem like it was, but it was not. It was a traditional war against a nation-state with a dictator...

For the first few weeks it was. Once the government was toppled and Saddam was ousted we started fighting militant religious groups, most of which had no affiliation with the prior government. We haven't been fighting "Iraq" since 2003.

Trotskilicious · 01-01-2009, 10:09 PM

Yeah but that wasn't what they expected at all. America created a terrorist front by toppling the government and creating a vacuum.

We didn't start the war to fight a terrorist group was my point so bringing Iraq into this is kind of like comparing apples to oranges. Also, we didn't carpet bomb Falluja, and part of the reason the war was such a clusterfuck was because after the government fell there were several different groups fighting amongst each other and the Americans and we didn't know who they were or who was organizing them. In fact, I clearly remember Bush saying that the Iraqi National Guard "vanished" demonstrating the low level of understanding of the entire Administration.

Though I seem to be under the impression that Petraeus' plan worked for the most part, due in part of actually starting to understand that this is more of a police action then a traditional war which underlines my point about wide-scale military operations as opposed to ferreting out threats. Some guy getting arrested and taken into custody under terrorism charges doesn't really create new terrorists. Shooting a missile and killing innocent civilians does.

I would think if a political party like Hamas has missiles the Israeli government would try to figure out who is giving them missiles and bring the whole western world down on top of them. But no, lets blow up the Gaza Strip instead.

Tchocky · 01-02-2009, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

I would think if a political party like Hamas has missiles the Israeli government would try to figure out who is giving them missiles and bring the whole western world down on top of them. But no, lets blow up the Gaza Strip instead.

redbreegull · 01-02-2009, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

I would think if a political party like Hamas has missiles the Israeli government would try to figure out who is giving them missiles and bring the whole western world down on top of them. But no, lets blow up the Gaza Strip instead.

They probably got them from the US of A.

Mo · 01-02-2009, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbreegull

They probably got them from the US of A.

Probably Pakistan, but they surely are old US weapons.

Let's arm the world, it's still very dangerous place!

redbreegull · 01-02-2009, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antipop

Probably Pakistan, but they surely are old US weapons.

Let's arm the world, it's still very dangerous place!

yep. I love how we are now arming Afghan civilians to fight against the Taliban. Someone remind me how the Taliban came to power in the first place.

Oh, right.

Trotskilicious · 01-02-2009, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbreegull

They probably got them from the US of A.

Yeah I know it was kind of a rhetorical question.

Delicieuxz · 01-03-2009, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banana

Quote:

Originally Posted by jczeroman

Israel should be wiped off the map.

jczeroman · 01-03-2009, 01:09 PM

Obviously my "off the map" bit was a little tongue and cheek. However, as this progresses it is obvious that the Israelis our off their gourd here. I hope that they are held accountable for this - it's getting stupid.

sppunk · 01-03-2009, 01:09 PM

So tanks are now in Gaza.

Strongly believe Iran will be launching some firepower toward Jerusalem soon now (they'd do this through Syria, most likely), since Israel is hellbent on ripping Gaza apart.

The Jesus · 01-03-2009, 01:47 PM

I hope these events embolden the Israelis and they go back into Lebanon. I look forward to Hezbollah slaughtering these animals once again.

carapatricia · 01-04-2009, 12:46 AM

thats all.

redbreegull · 01-04-2009, 12:51 AM

God damnit this pisses me off so much. I wish our government would fucking do something other than suck Israel's dick. This is fucking outrageous and there is nothing we can do.

12-30-2008, 10:56 AM	#1
sppunk Netphoria's George Will Location: Fenway Park Posts: 34,870	Israel vs. Hamas This is Hezbollah vs. Lebanon all over again, unless Israel wants to actually win and eradicate Hamas completely (ie carpet bomb Palestine).

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12-30-2008, 12:42 PM	#2
Trotskilicious My Fiesta Name is Pendejo Location: I'm never going outside again unless I need someplace to throw up. Posts: 11,681	It's weird how people still aren't getting the fact that bombing a country only creates more terrorists.

12-30-2008, 01:41 PM	#4
Trotskilicious My Fiesta Name is Pendejo Location: I'm never going outside again unless I need someplace to throw up. Posts: 11,681	Well it certainly hasn't stopped nation states from executing military actions against terrorist organizations by BOMBING THE FUCK OUT OF ANOTHER NATION STATE. I mean yes, everyone agrees with me right? A rational, obvious thing to say: wide scale military operations carried out against a nation, endangering the lives of innocents and children, instead of the terrorist organization because you're too lazy and cheap to actually take security and police actions seriously creates terrorists. Simple concept, yeah. It is. Except Israel and many of its citizens don't get it at all, apparently. Neither does America, for that matter.

12-30-2008, 01:46 PM	#5
Trotskilicious My Fiesta Name is Pendejo Location: I'm never going outside again unless I need someplace to throw up. Posts: 11,681	I mean think about what would happen if instead of just trying to beef up security and go into peace talks and ferret out the high ranking organizers of the IRA Britain just bombed the living fuck out of Ireland. I mean that would just be a great big mess, wouldn't it? Obviously. Jesus Christ. And yes, Israel's done all this, but continues to act as if shooting missiles at their neighbors shouldn't set back the arduous peace process. They exist in this total vacuum where they act like there are no consequences with their actions and rather than realizing that this shit takes decades of honest-to-god sacrifice they'd rather shoot missiles at their neighbors because, after all, the United States has their back no matter how obnoxious and awful they are.

12-30-2008, 04:19 PM	#6
jczeroman inactive user Location: United Kingdom Posts: 14,114	Israel should be wiped off the map.

12-30-2008, 06:50 PM	#7
rolmos Apocalyptic Poster Posts: 2,354	This.

12-31-2008, 06:49 PM	#11
redbreegull Socialphobic Location: listen you beautiful bitch, I'm about to fuck you up with some truth Posts: 11,476	I think the attitude our generation has towards Israel is pretty different than what our parents' generation sees. I know a lot of younger people that view Israel as a rogue state, or think it is just as bad as Palestine, but I don't think I have ever heard anyone of my parents' age express this view. My father is Jewish but always talks about how much he disdains all organized religion and learned to hate Judaism because of all the religious schooling he was forced to endure as a child, and he will still argue with me bitterly that Israel has an absolute right to exist and to protect itself and that I just don't understand.

12-31-2008, 08:34 PM	#12
Trotskilicious My Fiesta Name is Pendejo Location: I'm never going outside again unless I need someplace to throw up. Posts: 11,681	My parents are in their mid sixties and they agree with me

12-31-2008, 09:03 PM	#13
JokeyLoki has great self of steam. Location: SECRET OBAMA FUCKDEN RENDEZVOUS Posts: 24,176	What was Israel supposed to do? Hamas ripped up the cease fire and launched rockets into them. I guess they should just say "Oh well" and take it.

12-31-2008, 09:42 PM	#14
Trotskilicious My Fiesta Name is Pendejo Location: I'm never going outside again unless I need someplace to throw up. Posts: 11,681	Hamas is a terrorist organization not a nation state. Refer to the IRA example I mentioned above. The IRA has a political wing called Sinn Fein that carries seats in Irish Parliament.

01-01-2009, 10:09 PM	#19
Trotskilicious My Fiesta Name is Pendejo Location: I'm never going outside again unless I need someplace to throw up. Posts: 11,681	Yeah but that wasn't what they expected at all. America created a terrorist front by toppling the government and creating a vacuum. We didn't start the war to fight a terrorist group was my point so bringing Iraq into this is kind of like comparing apples to oranges. Also, we didn't carpet bomb Falluja, and part of the reason the war was such a clusterfuck was because after the government fell there were several different groups fighting amongst each other and the Americans and we didn't know who they were or who was organizing them. In fact, I clearly remember Bush saying that the Iraqi National Guard "vanished" demonstrating the low level of understanding of the entire Administration. Though I seem to be under the impression that Petraeus' plan worked for the most part, due in part of actually starting to understand that this is more of a police action then a traditional war which underlines my point about wide-scale military operations as opposed to ferreting out threats. Some guy getting arrested and taken into custody under terrorism charges doesn't really create new terrorists. Shooting a missile and killing innocent civilians does. I would think if a political party like Hamas has missiles the Israeli government would try to figure out who is giving them missiles and bring the whole western world down on top of them. But no, lets blow up the Gaza Strip instead.

01-03-2009, 01:09 PM	#26
jczeroman inactive user Location: United Kingdom Posts: 14,114	Obviously my "off the map" bit was a little tongue and cheek. However, as this progresses it is obvious that the Israelis our off their gourd here. I hope that they are held accountable for this - it's getting stupid.

01-03-2009, 01:47 PM	#28
The Jesus Minion of Satan Location: Kiltworld Posts: 5,951	I hope these events embolden the Israelis and they go back into Lebanon. I look forward to Hezbollah slaughtering these animals once again.

01-04-2009, 12:46 AM	#29
carapatricia Apocalyptic Poster Location: City of Big Shoulders Posts: 1,316	thats all.

01-04-2009, 12:51 AM	#30
redbreegull Socialphobic Location: listen you beautiful bitch, I'm about to fuck you up with some truth Posts: 11,476	God damnit this pisses me off so much. I wish our government would fucking do something other than suck Israel's dick. This is fucking outrageous and there is nothing we can do.