Dawn to Dusk vs Twilight to Starlight - Page 2

i_adore_adore · 02-22-2008, 11:35 PM

Where's tcm? He'll back me up.

Siamese Dream is too ordinary to be considered SP's best work. It's a step above what a lot of bands were doing in the early '90s (errr... okay, yes, I was like 2 years old, but I'm right, right? right), but overall there is not much on that album that really makes me scratch my head and think, "How in the name of God did he come up with that?" Mellon Collie is so much weirder, so much bigger, and so much more original than anything on Siamese Dream.

I'm not saying SD is a bad album, or that you're wrong in thinking it's got the greatest stretch of songs ever. I'm just saying that I don't particularly feel it even begins to compare to Twilight to Starlight.

arCHI · 02-22-2008, 11:51 PM

i start to think those sorts of things about SD if i dont listen to it for a while. then i listen to is and realize i was wrong. i still like MCIS much more, but thats just because i prefer the atmosphere and breadth of the album. when all is said and done SD is insanely good and you are kind of underestimating it i think.

however, when i listen to SD now billys voice kinda bothers me...

edit: dont get me wrong, i appreciate the fact that you agree MCIS is better

Jonny5 · 02-23-2008, 02:50 AM

i just recently listened to dawn to dusk on some new headphones i got. not only have i always preferred the second disc, but i always considered it to be an album to play out on speakers. then after listening through i realized how beautiful dawn to dusk really is. and it flows nicely too. so yeah, i am split.

tcm · 02-23-2008, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

Where's tcm? He'll back me up.

Siamese Dream is too ordinary to be considered SP's best work. It's a step above what a lot of bands were doing in the early '90s (errr... okay, yes, I was like 2 years old, but I'm right, right? right), but overall there is not much on that album that really makes me scratch my head and think, "How in the name of God did he come up with that?" Mellon Collie is so much weirder, so much bigger, and so much more original than anything on Siamese Dream.

I'm not saying SD is a bad album, or that you're wrong in thinking it's got the greatest stretch of songs ever. I'm just saying that I don't particularly feel it even begins to compare to Twilight to Starlight.

yeah man. something like that. SD sux.

tcm · 02-23-2008, 05:20 AM

but really, it was a bold move for billy at the time to write those relatively ordinary songs. i mean i think today is the most important song on there, besides obviously from the commercial standpoint, but also artistically. even though SD can't compare to the breadth and honesty of what came after it, it was a huge step for him towards realizing that he could be free to write whatever the hell kind of song or album he felt like. i guess. so it's... not bad.

wilch · 02-23-2008, 08:30 AM

yeah i agree siamese dream is too bland. Too many fuzzy powerchords to fill in parts of songs. there are some amazing songs though like soma and silverfuck and geek USA but as an album there isnt enough contrast

areyougaffney? · 02-23-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

Where's tcm? He'll back me up.

Siamese Dream is too ordinary to be considered SP's best work. It's a step above what a lot of bands were doing in the early '90s (errr... okay, yes, I was like 2 years old, but I'm right, right? right), but overall there is not much on that album that really makes me scratch my head and think, "How in the name of God did he come up with that?" Mellon Collie is so much weirder, so much bigger, and so much more original than anything on Siamese Dream.

I'm not saying SD is a bad album, or that you're wrong in thinking it's got the greatest stretch of songs ever. I'm just saying that I don't particularly feel it even begins to compare to Twilight to Starlight.

I agree. For the longest time SD was my favourite album. Until adore came out and then that was.

But over time Mellon Collie has slid up to number 2.

There is just sooo much on there. There isn't a single filler song, they not only play many different types of songs on the album but each style pisses on any bands that were writing songs of a similar ilk at the time...and even now (imo).

personally adore is my fav, but objectively mellon collie is the quintessential pumpkins album. It is an absolute masterpiece and achieves exactly what Billy wanted from it, which was to set themselves apart from ervyone else. Who else could have made that album at that time....No-one

arCHI · 02-23-2008, 04:13 PM

who else could make that album now?

Eulogy · 02-23-2008, 04:44 PM

see i actually look at the quality of the songs and not just the diversity of styles. and in that realm, SD pretty much lands a knockout punch. I love MCIS a ton, but Zero, BWBW, Cupid, and Take Me Down are all pretty significantly less awesome than anything on SD.

tcm · 02-23-2008, 05:14 PM

ugh, heeere we go with this 'quality' nonsense again.

wilch · 02-23-2008, 05:25 PM

i think the MCIS songs are of a much higher quality, the different parts of the songs flow better together. And as an added bonus they are more atmospheric and more varied. It beats SD on every level. Including singing. As someone said earlier billys voice is annoying quite often in SD, and not because of the whininess but cause its slightly out of tune and its just irritating, eg: cherub rock, quiet, rocket ("I shall be fraayy" jesus christ") etc, and billy really had no idea how to fit a string arrangement into a song. I mean spaceboy seriously, it ruined a nice simple acoustic song. And they are only sometimes good on disarm.

And now for something completely different: A scotsman on a horse!

Corganist · 02-23-2008, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

Siamese Dream is boring compared to Mellon Collie. Cherub Rock isn't all that great, Today is one of the most overrated SP songs of all time, Silverfuck is only exciting live. The rest are good songs, most of them great, but they don't compare to the wonder of Mellon Collie.

Just my opinion.

I don't think anyone who "adores Adore" should ever criticize any album or song for being "boring" or "overrated" or "only exciting live." And that goes especially for Siamese Dream.

Just my opinion.

tcm · 02-23-2008, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilch

i think the MCIS songs are of a much higher quality, the different parts of the songs flow better together. And as an added bonus they are more atmospheric and more varied. It beats SD on every level. Including singing. As someone said earlier billys voice is annoying quite often in SD, and not because of the whininess but cause its slightly out of tune and its just irritating, eg: cherub rock, quiet, rocket ("I shall be fraayy" jesus christ") etc, and billy really had no idea how to fit a string arrangement into a song. I mean spaceboy seriously, it ruined a nice simple acoustic song. And they are only sometimes good on disarm.

i dunno what the hell you're talking about wilch, SD is clearly the less aesthetically demanding by far. the vocals being annoying is news to me for sure. everything on there is candy-coated and perfectly non-abrasive.

tcm · 02-23-2008, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corganist

I don't think anyone who "adores Adore" should ever criticize any album or song for being "boring" or "overrated" or "only exciting live." And that goes especially for Siamese Dream.

Just my opinion.

that's incredibly stupid, isn't it? let's all get together give this guy a good thrashing.

wilch · 02-23-2008, 05:45 PM

i like his avatar too much to thrash him

tcm · 02-23-2008, 05:46 PM

just adblock it till we're done.

tcm · 02-23-2008, 05:47 PM

hey forget it i'm gonna kick your butt too, wilch. disagreement is on. your butt is mine. thumbs down.

Corganist · 02-23-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcm

that's incredibly stupid, isn't it? let's all get together give this guy a good thrashing.

Sorry, I just thought I'd say something to distract you guys from the absolutely insane Siamese Dream bashing going on. Depending on what day it is I could go either way on whether SD or MCIS is my favorite SP album, but calling one album or its songs "boring" or "ordinary" in order to distinguish it from the other is just not right.

tcm · 02-23-2008, 06:02 PM

come now, Siamese Dream is really that starved for love? what is it, three or four people in here want to express a view of the album other than OHMYGODOHMYGODSOSOSUPERDUPERSPECTACULARWHOOPADOO and suddenly we're declaring martial law? we were just sickened to see Corganist stooping to that petty, unprovoked, personal attack bullshit. we always thought Corganist was above all that. we do accept his apology.

Corganist · 02-23-2008, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcm

come now, Siamese Dream is really that starved for love? what is it, three or four people in here want to express a view of the album other than OHMYGODOHMYGODSOSOSUPERDUPERSPECTACULARWHOOPADOO and suddenly we're declaring martial law?

No one's declaring martial law or anything, but someone's got to tell you guys you're at the least might be taking things a little too far. No one's saying you have to have Siamese Dream at the top of your list. There are good reasons to prefer MCIS (or even Adore I guess)...but to call SD bland, boring, or ordinary? That's kinda harsh...especially since it's not true.

Quote:

we were just sickened to see Corganist stooping to that petty, unprovoked, personal attack bullshit. we always thought Corganist was above all that. we do accept his apology.

Since when is saying Adore may be a better candidate for the "boring" and "overrated" label than SD a personal attack on anyone?

tcm · 02-23-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corganist

No one's declaring martial law or anything, but someone's got to tell you guys you're at the least might be taking things a little too far. No one's saying you have to have Siamese Dream at the top of your list. There are good reasons to prefer MCIS (or even Adore I guess)...but to call SD bland, boring, or ordinary? That's kinda harsh...especially since it's not true.

yeah well i think practically the whole world is taking things a little too far with SD so it's payback time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corganist

Since when is saying Adore may be a better candidate for the "boring" and "overrated" label than SD a personal attack on anyone?

what's personal is suggesting that someone doesn't have a right to their opinion. one person makes a general statement of opinion on an album and another person turns it into an opinion on anyone holding that opinion. maybe i took you too literally but i also think you underestimate the power of this icon: http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon13.gif. it's kinda harsh, man.

tcm · 02-23-2008, 06:33 PM

and i noticed this guy voted for Dawn To Dusk. that tears it. don't know why i'd bother.

Corganist · 02-23-2008, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcm

yeah well i think practically the whole world is taking things a little too far with SD so it's payback time.

Fair enough I suppose.

Quote:

what's personal is suggesting that someone doesn't have a right to their opinion. one person makes a general statement of opinion on an album and another person turns it into an opinion on anyone holding that opinion. maybe i took you too literally but i also think you underestimate the power of this icon: http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon13.gif. it's kinda harsh, man.

Well I was trying to be a little harsh, but it was meant to be harshness against Adore rather than against any particular person. I was just saying I think it's inconsistent to suggest that Siamese Dream is boring while being a fan of (what I consider to be) a much more boring album.

Quote:

and i noticed this guy voted for Dawn To Dusk. that tears it. don't know why i'd bother.

It's sentimentalism more than anything. When I'm in a shitty mood, I can always put on Dawn to Dusk and play it at some unacceptably loud volume and feel better. Cranking up 33, ITAOS, Stumbleline, Lily, etc. just doesn't quite have the same effect as cranking up Jellybelly, Zero, HINW, BWBW, Fuck You...etc.

tcm · 02-23-2008, 07:13 PM

yeah but come on... it's the casual fan's disc... don't do that to yourself... it's like the SD of MCIS whereas T2S is the Adore of MCIS... have some self-respect. but yeah, Zero is my favoritesongever, and Porcelina > Ruby, and Cupid > WOCOAN/Beautiful/Lily, and Jellybelly > Bodies, and To Forgive > ITAOS, and Fuck You > TOASE, and i even like Take Me Down. but despite all of that, T2S is just so boldly constructed on the whole and embodies so many of the reasons the Pumpkins matter to me and okay maybe i should have gone with the wussy "they're both winners" after all.

Raventhird · 07:32 PM

I'm voting 'Dawn To Dusk'. Don't get me wrong: I'm not some random SP-Fan. This is actually the album of my life. And I'm a passionate music-lover, owning more than 3000 original CDs. I guess that I've listened to both sides more than a thousand times.

Yes, '33' - 'In the Arms of Sleep' - '1979' is a really strong combo. But two of these three wear out quite fast. And I desperately love 'Stumbeline', not caring what anyone else says about it. But compared to that incredible piano intro, giving me goosebumbs every time I hear it, compared to the masterpiece that 'Tonight, Tonight' is, compared to the absolutely incredible last third of the first disc ('Cupid de locke' - 'Galapagos' - 'Muzzle' - 'Porcelina', thinking of 'Take Me Down' as some kind of bonus track) "Twilight To Starlight" has no chance at all. And I didn't even mention 'To Forgive'.

mojo · 02-23-2008, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corganist

Fair enough I suppose.

Well I was trying to be a little harsh, but it was meant to be harshness against Adore rather than against any particular person. I was just saying I think it's inconsistent to suggest that Siamese Dream is boring while being a fan of (what I consider to be) a much more boring album.

It's sentimentalism more than anything. When I'm in a shitty mood, I can always put on Dawn to Dusk and play it at some unacceptably loud volume and feel better. Cranking up 33, ITAOS, Stumbleline, Lily, etc. just doesn't quite have the same effect as cranking up Jellybelly, Zero, HINW, BWBW, Fuck You...etc.

arn't you willfully misrepresenting both sides as heavy and non-heavy by selecting those particular songs? xyu and scorched earth are way heavier than anything on dawn to dusk.

killtrocity · 02-23-2008, 09:15 PM

what's you with people building strawperson arguments against SD? how bout you all s my d after I f your a h

Eulogy · 02-23-2008, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcm

ugh, heeere we go with this 'quality' nonsense again.

nonsense?

Corganist · 02-23-2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojo

arn't you willfully misrepresenting both sides as heavy and non-heavy by selecting those particular songs? xyu and scorched earth are way heavier than anything on dawn to dusk.

Maybe a little. But still, the heavy song to soft song ratio is much higher on Dawn to Dusk, so it's not like I'm stacking the deck too much. Sure, Twilight to Starlight has WBFTT, Bodies, TOASE and XYU...but they're all so spread out, so it's not like you can really rock out to that disc.

Liandrin · 02-24-2008, 12:15 AM

Regarding the Siamese Dream v. Mellon Collie comments:

I think SD is more consistent, while MCIS has the greater total number of good songs. There are some parts of MCIS that really feel out of place to me, like Love and Cupid de Locke on D2D (maybe that's intentional). Every song on SD sounds like it should be there.

If SD included the best of Pisces Iscariot, it would be no contest.

View Poll Results: MCIS disc 1 vs disc 2
Dawn to Dusk	30	31.91%
Twilight to Starlight	64	68.09%
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll

02-23-2008, 07:25 PM	#55
Raventhird Pledge Location: In Limbo Posts: 181	I'm voting 'Dawn To Dusk'. Don't get me wrong: I'm not some random SP-Fan. This is actually the album of my life. And I'm a passionate music-lover, owning more than 3000 original CDs. I guess that I've listened to both sides more than a thousand times. Yes, '33' - 'In the Arms of Sleep' - '1979' is a really strong combo. But two of these three wear out quite fast. And I desperately love 'Stumbeline', not caring what anyone else says about it. But compared to that incredible piano intro, giving me goosebumbs every time I hear it, compared to the masterpiece that 'Tonight, Tonight' is, compared to the absolutely incredible last third of the first disc ('Cupid de locke' - 'Galapagos' - 'Muzzle' - 'Porcelina', thinking of 'Take Me Down' as some kind of bonus track) "Twilight To Starlight" has no chance at all. And I didn't even mention 'To Forgive'. Last edited by Raventhird : 02-23-2008 at 07:32 PM.

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02-22-2008, 11:35 PM	#31
i_adore_adore Apocalyptic Poster Location: IL Posts: 3,559	Where's tcm? He'll back me up. Siamese Dream is too ordinary to be considered SP's best work. It's a step above what a lot of bands were doing in the early '90s (errr... okay, yes, I was like 2 years old, but I'm right, right? right), but overall there is not much on that album that really makes me scratch my head and think, "How in the name of God did he come up with that?" Mellon Collie is so much weirder, so much bigger, and so much more original than anything on Siamese Dream. I'm not saying SD is a bad album, or that you're wrong in thinking it's got the greatest stretch of songs ever. I'm just saying that I don't particularly feel it even begins to compare to Twilight to Starlight.

02-22-2008, 11:51 PM	#32
arCHI Demi-God Location: Chicago Posts: 289	i start to think those sorts of things about SD if i dont listen to it for a while. then i listen to is and realize i was wrong. i still like MCIS much more, but thats just because i prefer the atmosphere and breadth of the album. when all is said and done SD is insanely good and you are kind of underestimating it i think. however, when i listen to SD now billys voice kinda bothers me... edit: dont get me wrong, i appreciate the fact that you agree MCIS is better

02-23-2008, 02:50 AM	#33
Jonny5 Apocalyptic Poster Posts: 2,445	i just recently listened to dawn to dusk on some new headphones i got. not only have i always preferred the second disc, but i always considered it to be an album to play out on speakers. then after listening through i realized how beautiful dawn to dusk really is. and it flows nicely too. so yeah, i am split.

02-23-2008, 05:20 AM	#35
tcm Braindead Location: Le look de Corgan Posts: 17,922	but really, it was a bold move for billy at the time to write those relatively ordinary songs. i mean i think today is the most important song on there, besides obviously from the commercial standpoint, but also artistically. even though SD can't compare to the breadth and honesty of what came after it, it was a huge step for him towards realizing that he could be free to write whatever the hell kind of song or album he felt like. i guess. so it's... not bad.

02-23-2008, 08:30 AM	#36
wilch Ownz Posts: 585	yeah i agree siamese dream is too bland. Too many fuzzy powerchords to fill in parts of songs. there are some amazing songs though like soma and silverfuck and geek USA but as an album there isnt enough contrast

02-23-2008, 04:13 PM	#38
arCHI Demi-God Location: Chicago Posts: 289	who else could make that album now?

02-23-2008, 04:44 PM	#39
Eulogy huh Posts: 62,378	see i actually look at the quality of the songs and not just the diversity of styles. and in that realm, SD pretty much lands a knockout punch. I love MCIS a ton, but Zero, BWBW, Cupid, and Take Me Down are all pretty significantly less awesome than anything on SD.

02-23-2008, 05:14 PM	#40
tcm Braindead Location: Le look de Corgan Posts: 17,922	ugh, heeere we go with this 'quality' nonsense again.

02-23-2008, 05:25 PM	#41
wilch Ownz Posts: 585	i think the MCIS songs are of a much higher quality, the different parts of the songs flow better together. And as an added bonus they are more atmospheric and more varied. It beats SD on every level. Including singing. As someone said earlier billys voice is annoying quite often in SD, and not because of the whininess but cause its slightly out of tune and its just irritating, eg: cherub rock, quiet, rocket ("I shall be fraayy" jesus christ") etc, and billy really had no idea how to fit a string arrangement into a song. I mean spaceboy seriously, it ruined a nice simple acoustic song. And they are only sometimes good on disarm. And now for something completely different: A scotsman on a horse!

02-23-2008, 05:45 PM	#45
wilch Ownz Posts: 585	i like his avatar too much to thrash him

02-23-2008, 05:46 PM	#46
tcm Braindead Location: Le look de Corgan Posts: 17,922	just adblock it till we're done.

02-23-2008, 05:47 PM	#47
tcm Braindead Location: Le look de Corgan Posts: 17,922	hey forget it i'm gonna kick your butt too, wilch. disagreement is on. your butt is mine. thumbs down.

02-23-2008, 06:02 PM	#49
tcm Braindead Location: Le look de Corgan Posts: 17,922	come now, Siamese Dream is really that starved for love? what is it, three or four people in here want to express a view of the album other than OHMYGODOHMYGODSOSOSUPERDUPERSPECTACULARWHOOPADOO and suddenly we're declaring martial law? we were just sickened to see Corganist stooping to that petty, unprovoked, personal attack bullshit. we always thought Corganist was above all that. we do accept his apology.

02-23-2008, 06:33 PM	#52
tcm Braindead Location: Le look de Corgan Posts: 17,922	and i noticed this guy voted for Dawn To Dusk. that tears it. don't know why i'd bother.

02-23-2008, 07:13 PM	#54
tcm Braindead Location: Le look de Corgan Posts: 17,922	yeah but come on... it's the casual fan's disc... don't do that to yourself... it's like the SD of MCIS whereas T2S is the Adore of MCIS... have some self-respect. but yeah, Zero is my favoritesongever, and Porcelina > Ruby, and Cupid > WOCOAN/Beautiful/Lily, and Jellybelly > Bodies, and To Forgive > ITAOS, and Fuck You > TOASE, and i even like Take Me Down. but despite all of that, T2S is just so boldly constructed on the whole and embodies so many of the reasons the Pumpkins matter to me and okay maybe i should have gone with the wussy "they're both winners" after all.

02-23-2008, 09:15 PM	#57
killtrocity Saturday Night Goth Location: POLLOS Posts: 8,945	what's you with people building strawperson arguments against SD? how bout you all s my d after I f your a h

02-24-2008, 12:15 AM	#60
Liandrin Oblivious Virgin Posts: 47	Regarding the Siamese Dream v. Mellon Collie comments: I think SD is more consistent, while MCIS has the greater total number of good songs. There are some parts of MCIS that really feel out of place to me, like Love and Cupid de Locke on D2D (maybe that's intentional). Every song on SD sounds like it should be there. If SD included the best of Pisces Iscariot, it would be no contest.