Universal Healthcare is Wonderful and Will Ensure Better Health care for everyone

[Future Boy]

Originally Posted by Gish08

Looks like HCR will pass.

please dont call it that

edit: actually it wont matter anyway, so nvm

[bloop]

Originally Posted by Future Boy

Well that depends on who you're talking to, and who they're spinning for.

No, it doesn't. Presidents are permitted to recommend legislation, and to speak with members of Congress to see it through. This has been well within the President's power (and used) for as long as I can remember, and I'm sure longer than that.

[Gish08]

Originally Posted by Future Boy

please dont call it that

edit: actually it wont matter anyway, so nvm

Why won't it matter?

Proposed Changes in the Final Health Care Bill - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

Also, there's enough to call it reform.

Originally Posted by Order 66

If by "pass" you mean shoved down the throats of the American people, then yeah

wah wah wah

[redbreegull]

I don't know about you guys, but I am going to drink myself into a coma tonight in celebration.

[Future Boy]

Originally Posted by bloop

No, it doesn't. Presidents are permitted to recommend legislation, and to speak with members of Congress to see it through. This has been well within the President's power (and used) for as long as I can remember, and I'm sure longer than that.

The rep comment didnt clarify that enough for you huh. Ok.

[Future Boy]

Originally Posted by Gish08

Why won't it matter?

Too late in the game to change the sell, basically.

Originally Posted by Gish08

Also, there's enough to call it reform.

yeah ok. dont forget how historic it is either. drink one for me gish.

[Order 66]

I wish I could take the day off and listen to talk radio all day tomarrow. I'm sure its going to be comedy gold

[TuralyonW3]

this was pretty good:

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Key health care opponent ambushed with cash - Blogs from CNN.com

[Future Boy]

problem with the page or your link

[Future Boy]

I disagree with the outcome, and the oversell of this turd, but my view of Pelosi has improved some over this whole thing.

Nancy Pelosi steeled White House for health push - Carrie Budoff Brown and Glenn Thrush - POLITICO.com

[Order 66]

if you ever watch cspan at one time in your life now is probably the time

[28if]

Originally Posted by Future Boy

I disagree with the outcome, and the oversell of this turd, but my view of Pelosi has improved some over this whole thing.

Nancy Pelosi steeled White House for health push - Carrie Budoff Brown and Glenn Thrush - POLITICO.com

pelosi has actually handled the house pretty well since obama's election. reid is the one who's been really fucking things up.

[sppunk]

This bill assures the loss of Social Security and Medicare down the road. And likely the decrease in unemployment compensation (which isn't a bad thing really).

REALLY AWESOME GUYS

Amazing how close we've come to a socialist government in 3 years or so.

[Order 66]

America had a good run

[TuralyonW3]

john boner says today is armageddon but it seems like a beautiful day out my window

[Gish08]

Originally Posted by sppunk

This bill assures the loss of Social Security and Medicare down the road. And likely the decrease in unemployment compensation (which isn't a bad thing really).

REALLY AWESOME GUYS

Amazing how close we've come to a socialist government in 3 years or so.

If you think this is a road to socialism you are delusional

[Future Boy]

So Gish, Order66, Turalyon, Redbreegulll or anyone really supporting the bill. Hopefully one of you can help me out. Can you guys explain to me how this builds into something worthwhile? I keep seeing the incremental argument, oh it'll be improved like SS and Medicare. Well for those you were able to expand the group of people they were available to, take a limited plan and expand it, right? Which is why I would have settled for a weak public option.

Well my question is, how do you take a private/for profit/market based solution and grow or convert it into a public/non-profit solution like a public option or single payer? Because if this works, would it not essentially kill the reason for either of those? There's some snark in this question, but seriously how does this grow into those? Because I cant see it.

Unless this is more political chess mastery were the point is to have it fail and show the market wont contain costs.

[28if]

this one wont work properly until we add a public option, incrementally. but things will still get better because of this bill. we can't just do nothing while we wait for the republicans to wrap their heads around a public option for however many years.

[sppunk]

Originally Posted by Gish08

If you think this is a road to socialism you are delusional

Government taking over control of anything = socialism.

We are not even close to having a socialist government, but this is a large step toward complete socialized health care. Factor the changes this would make in with Medicare / Medicaid, and you have a government-run insurance conglomeration. And the government already has fucked up Medicare so I don't see why people think they won't fuck up this.

[Order 66]

I'm not really going to defend the bill in depth until the fixes are there and it really is a done deal. But I think approaching it through the prism of "how does this get us to single payer/PO" as opposed how many people are going to be insured, how fiscally sound it is in relation to the status quo, ect. is kind of silly. It does the job, and like civil rights and SS and every other major piece of legislation it won't be something done in one fell swoop but done over years. but even if for some bizarre reason this is never revisited I dont see how this isn't a reasonable victory for the left. But like I said its something I really wouldn't want to defend until evwrything is on the table for certain

[Future Boy]

Originally Posted by 28if

this one wont work properly until we add a public option, incrementally. but things will still get better because of this bill. we can't just do nothing while we wait for the republicans to wrap their heads around a public option for however many years.

I can see that I guess, but if this wont work properly keeping the mandate/fines/excise tax in there is pretty dangerous, no? Plus this route wouldn't come about until when? The plan doesn't fully kick in until 2014, how long after that before its deemed to be failing and we try and get a PO in there. Meanwhile the mandate and stuff works against the dems.

I recognize that there is some good in the bill, but what I cant get over is the trade off in the event cost is not controlled. I think the medicaid expansion and funding could've gotten through fairly easily. Along with ending rescission. That's incremental and the danger of the mandate is removed.

Originally Posted by Order 66

I'm not really going to defend the bill in depth until the fixes are there and it really is a done deal. But I think approaching it through the prism of "how does this get us to single payer/PO" as opposed how many people are going to be insured, how fiscally sound it is in relation to the status quo, ect. is kind of silly. It does the job, and like civil rights and SS and every other major piece of legislation it won't be something done in one fell swoop but done over years. but even if for some bizarre reason this is never revisited I dont see how this isn't a reasonable victory for the left. But like I said its something I really wouldn't want to defend until evwrything is on the table for certain

I'm not completely criticizing it totally for the same reason, its not final-final yet. But where we go from here I think is a valid question. Either you think the market can regulate itself or not. Traditionally "not" has been the Democratic position, so I'm approaching from that, which is what gets us to the public option at least.

Looking at it simply as the number of people insured by this is misguided. Plenty of people have insurance, but not adequate care. Lots of people have health insurance now and still go bankrupt by medical bills. Part of the reasoning behind this bill seems to be that there are a large number of people who can afford it if they tighten their belts and have the government close the gap. That makes as much sense as that republican saying people on unemployment don't want to work.

On the one hand you're defending this saying it'll grow into something, and on the other dismissing as silly my question of how do we grow from this. So do you not have an opinion on this, or opting for "in congress we trust". Its not enough to simply say those others worked incrementally, so will this.

[Future Boy]

Also other than medicaid expansion theres nothing or very little "left" about this thing, and acting like its some grand historic progressive/liberal win hurts the cause and solidifies republican framing. I mean one thing is them pushing this as liberalism run wild, we dont need the liberals also out there saying "Yeah, aint it great!"

[TuralyonW3]

good lord boner is spouting a bunch of embarrassing shit right now

[Order 66]

I would imagine there are several ways to expand on it like through Medicare expansions or something. I'm sure there's a lot of directions you could go.

But even of not you have most of the profits going right to the insurance. So the mechanisms to better healthcare are there its just about the means. And extrapolating from how ugly of a process this has been I'm pretty sure if we came out of this with a PO itd be worse than this bill and maybe even worse than the status quo. But that's just my armchair observation

[duovamp]

Mmmmmyeah, wsup den? Wsup den?

[redbull]

huh
so this passed
everyone poop their pants now

[duovamp]

I am very excited to see the Fox reaction. "OBAMA SHITS ON BALD EAGLE, NOW CONTROLS ALL"

[duovamp]

3890 should be through in no time, we'll see about the rest later this week.

[ryan patrick]

Originally Posted by Future Boy

I disagree with the outcome, and the oversell of this turd, but my view of Pelosi has improved some over this whole thing.

agree on Pelosi. her floor speech tonight was really good. she did all the heavy lifting in the post-Brown environment to get this done, getting her extremely diverse caucus together for the vote on a bill that gives no one exactly what they wish it did was very impressive. came away thinking she has been way underrated, and her legacy might be viewed fairly strongly due to what happened today.

[Future Boy]

It'll go up even more when/if Reid fails to get reconciliation through his. Im curious what you think of the bill.