Universal Healthcare is Wonderful and Will Ensure Better Health care for everyone

[Gish08]

Originally Posted by sppunk

Obama is really, really shitty when it comes to shaping messages.

Yeah, he's so bad at it that he basically ran the best Presidential campaign in the history of American politics. Which of course proves that he was able to beat the Clinton machine and the vile of the GOP during an election year.

Obama himself actually stated a few months back that he wants single payer, but knows that with the way health care is in this country, it will never happen.

The problem does not lie with Obama so much as it does his party.

[sppunk]

Sine running and defeating George Bush, Obama hasn't won one public debate. He is allowing a party with no image and no leader dictate public perception on an issue that should be a fundamental victory for the Dems. He has done the same with the car companies and the terrorists in U.S. control.

Being a good campaigner has zero to do with being an effective leader.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by sppunk

Sine running and defeating George Bush, Obama hasn't won one public debate. He is allowing a party with no image and no leader dictate public perception on an issue that should be a fundamental victory for the Dems. He has done the same with the car companies and the terrorists in U.S. control.

Being a good campaigner has zero to do with being an effective leader.

He has about as much chance of winning as I do, AMIRITE??!?!?

[Future Boy]

The election was equal parts Obamas campaign and economy blowing up. The economy was a game changer, holding comments sppunk made before it against him might be funny, but not much else. Once it tanked he pretty much said Obama would win.

[Future Boy]

Fuck if people really want to look back Im sure most all of you were saying Obama would be able to bring the Republicans on board to whatever he wanted. That was funny even then.

[Karl Connor]

but none of this is really obama's fault. it's all up to the senate at this point.

[Future Boy]

Originally Posted by Gish08

Obama himself actually stated a few months back that he wants single payer, but knows that with the way health care is in this country, it will never happen.

I really think he is in favor of it, but he has done a lot of damage in undermining whatever support existed. What Obama really , truly, deeply feels at the end of the day means dick when hes out helping to shoot it down.

Originally Posted by Gish08

The problem does not lie with Obama so much as it does his party.

Yes, the President of the United States has nothing to do with setting the goal, or shaping the policy of his own fucking party.

[Future Boy]

Originally Posted by Karl Connor

but none of this is really obama's fault. it's all up to the senate at this point.

He pre-compromised just like he did on the stimulus. Unless you honestly think Obama had no input on something that would define his presidency.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by Gish08

Yeah, he's so bad at it that he basically ran the best Presidential campaign in the history of American politics. Which of course proves that he was able to beat the Clinton machine and the vile of the GOP during an election year.

Convincing people that someone would make a better President than John McCain really is not the Herculean task you're making it out to be. The campaign was made up of Hillary/Edwards/McCain/Palin/Huckabee/Romney/Paul. That's hardly a murderer's row kind of lineup. Any candidate worth his salt should have been able to climb to the top of that trash heap.

[sppunk]

You could argue he underwhelmed in the election and make a solid argument.

But that's not the point. The point is he isn't defying his own platform, and that's terrible.

[Karl Connor]

Originally Posted by Future Boy

He pre-compromised just like he did on the stimulus. Unless you honestly think Obama had no input on something that would define his presidency.

the only possible way we could get a public option is if harry reid goes nuclear (very unlikely). it's not obama, the votes just aren't there

that said it is disingenuous of him to pretend all of a sudden like a public option is "just a sliver" of the overall reform

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by sppunk

Sine running and defeating George Bush, Obama hasn't won one public debate. He is allowing a party with no image and no leader dictate public perception on an issue that should be a fundamental victory for the Dems. He has done the same with the car companies and the terrorists in U.S. control.

Being a good campaigner has zero to do with being an effective leader.

that's not what you said though you made an untrue blanket statement

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

No the point is medicare = bad but if you say that the AARP and the old folks who vote in disproportionate numbers will make sure you're not re-elected. It's fucking stupid but you've got the people who are getting the entitlements controlling elections.

yeah voting is pretty stupid

[sppunk]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

that's not what you said though you made an untrue blanket statement

Give me a few examples that show Obama, since being sworn into office, has been successful at shaping a national debate.

[dudehitscar]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

No the point is medicare = bad but if you say that the AARP and the old folks who vote in disproportionate numbers will make sure you're not re-elected. It's fucking stupid but you've got the people who are getting the entitlements controlling elections.

if old people are the only problem then why not just eliminate it for people who are 20 years old right now and forever after that. Repubs don't get the young vote anyway. I think they actually think it's a good program but are afraid to admit it but have no problem in bringing it up as an argument against health care reform entitlements. It's intellectually dishonest at best.

[dudehitscar]

I do not get dropping the public option.. fuck this I'm getting married tomorrow. Talk to you guys in a later.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by dudehitscar

if old people are the only problem then why not just eliminate it for people who are 20 years old right now and forever after that. Repubs don't get the young vote anyway. I think they actually think it's a good program but are afraid to admit it but have no problem in bringing it up as an argument against health care reform entitlements. It's intellectually dishonest at best.

Conservatism is intellectually dishonest.

[Future Boy]

Originally Posted by Karl Connor

the only possible way we could get a public option is if harry reid goes nuclear (very unlikely). it's not obama, the votes just aren't there

that said it is disingenuous of him to pretend all of a sudden like a public option is "just a sliver" of the overall reform

Oh it wouldve been a battle and unlikely to pass, but it is still important for framing. Framing wise that becomes some grand socialist agenda and radical liberalism, and public option is more of a compromise (even a weak one). 70% of something is better than nothing, but that doesnt mean you start negotiating at 70%.

Plus, I mean, HopeChange did win in Nov, you never know what could happen.

[Gish08]

Originally Posted by sppunk

Sine running and defeating George Bush, Obama hasn't won one public debate. He is allowing a party with no image and no leader dictate public perception on an issue that should be a fundamental victory for the Dems. He has done the same with the car companies and the terrorists in U.S. control.

Being a good campaigner has zero to do with being an effective leader.

Uh, he has won plenty of public debates.

And to be fair, the blue dogs are just as much if not more to blame for obstructing legitimate UHC. The Republicans are basically riding on the coattails of Democratic party infighting and stupid townhall goers.

Obama is one man, he cannot force his party's hand. Unless your party initially views you as some cult figure like they did for Bush.

I think you are being a bit too premature here. He's only been in office for half a year, it's way too early to claim that he cannot lead.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

yeah voting is pretty stupid

I didn't say "voting is stupid" i said older people vote in number disproportionate to their percentage of the population. You're not even good at trolling anymore.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by dudehitscar

if old people are the only problem then why not just eliminate it for people who are 20 years old right now and forever after that. Repubs don't get the young vote anyway. I think they actually think it's a good program but are afraid to admit it but have no problem in bringing it up as an argument against health care reform entitlements. It's intellectually dishonest at best.

They don't do that because the AARP would have a shitfit, and the old people would be rallied to vote the way the AARP tells them. Don't be naive.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

Conservatism is intellectually dishonest.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by sppunk

Give me a few examples that show Obama, since being sworn into office, has been successful at shaping a national debate.

well that's not what you originally said. you said he was really really shitty at it period and i was like "i dunno he was pretty good at it during the campaign."

so yah. you do this all the time. come out of the gate with some obnoxious untrue blanket statment and then come back and add qualifiers. just say the right thing the first time.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

I didn't say "voting is stupid" i said older people vote in number disproportionate to their percentage of the population. You're not even good at trolling anymore.

i'm not trolling i think voting is stupid

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Gish08

Uh, he has won plenty of public debates.

And to be fair, the blue dogs are just as much if not more to blame for obstructing legitimate UHC. The Republicans are basically riding on the coattails of Democratic party infighting and stupid townhall goers.

Obama is one man, he cannot force his party's hand. Unless your party initially views you as some cult figure like they did for Bush.

I think you are being a bit too premature here. He's only been in office for half a year, it's way too early to claim that he cannot lead.

I don't think anyone's said he "cannot lead." The point is, he hasn't led.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by Gish08

Obama is one man, he cannot force his party's hand. Unless your party initially views you as some cult figure like they did for Bush.

Wait a second, you're saying that Bush was viewed as a cult figure by his party...and Obama is not? Huh? Obama's rise to power all but epitomizes "cult following!"

We are through the looking glass here.

[sppunk]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

well that's not what you originally said. you said he was really really shitty at it period and i was like "i dunno he was pretty good at it during the campaign."

so yah. you do this all the time. come out of the gate with some obnoxious untrue blanket statment and then come back and add qualifiers. just say the right thing the first time.

Sorry, I didn't know we were still hung up on a presidential campaign. I thought by now we'd all moved on to Chapter 2, or How I Lose My Popularity And Clout With The American People.

[Trotskilicious]

i'm just demanding factually correct statements god forbid i should do that

[Trotskilicious]

people are freaking the fuck out pretty quickly, it's kind of amusing (but more annoying). we still got 3 1/2 years of your psychotic shit to suffer through.

[Caine Walker]

so am i getting cheaper healthcare or not?