joining together to fight global warming

[trev]

Originally Posted by Rider

My problem is with the idiotic green movement. I was watching this new show about eco friendly inventors. In one segment they are painting a roof white to counteract the heat island effect in cities, 20 minutes later they are putting up black solar panels on a roof to save energy.

how stupid can you be?

white = reflects sun and heat

black = absorbs sun and heat.

so if you want to use solar panels, which use the energy and heat from the sun to generate electricity, of course black is the best choice.

and if you want to keep a house cool, painting the roof white is a great idea.

i don't see anything idiotic there.

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeMouth

Global warming is not really significant when we sit up and notice all the other fucked up shit we are doing to the planet, things that will get us waaaaay before this will.

most of the "fucked up shit" is caused by pollutants. global warming emissions are pollutants too, which also have other effects other than just global warming, regardless if you believe so.

taking a negative stance against something because it's "not as positive as it claims to be" is pretty stupid.

just because reducing emissions might not reduce global warming doesn't mean it's bad to do so, it will have other advantages too.

and then if the huge likelihood chance that you are wrong turns out to be true, then it will be even more important of an achievement.

[BumbleBeeMouth]

the most harm can result from the best intentions when the nature of cause and effect is unknown. See:

the waste of the opportunity to eradicate, or at least permanantly minimise the risk of many many diseases through the intelligent and restrictive use of antibiotics

Thalidomide

DDT

CFC's

TNT

The list goes on.

My point is, that in focusing all of our attention and resources on the potential danger in this matter, how can we be sure that we arent downplaying other more urgent concerns simply because they are not economically paramount.

[Jonny5]

it's not about global warming. it's not about al gore.

the environmental movement is important, but so many of the changes we need to make for environmental problem solving are things we should be doing regardless of whether the ice caps are melting or not. whether it be building spiritual connections with nature, practicing healthy ecological stewardship, or supporting local economies...we don't need global warming as our excuse. and it all feeds back to social and cultural concerns. not just the jolly green giant or the lorax or what have you

it should be called global weirding instead.

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeMouth

Sorry, i was ranting. Let me be rational here.

Global warming is currently happening, but this is perfectly natural to happen! The climate of the earth moves in cycles, or glacial periods. hot to cold, then cold to hot. every.... 10,000 years or so (with small fluctuations, did you know the river Thames froze over in the 1600's?)

True enough. But apparently, the crisis is not the mere fact that were in a warming cycle, but how accelerated it is this time. The earth is supposedly warming at a faster rate than ever before. Isn't there some ridiculous stat that says the top 7 or 8 hottest average recorded years in human history is just within the last decade?

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeMouth

To confidently attribute the effects of excessive global warming to humanity is absurd when you consider all the random variables present in the climate. Particularly that of the chaotic weather patterns and the quite trule staggering power of the sun. (Check out stuff like the milankovitch cycle here http://www.homepage.montana.edu/~geo...1/milankov.htm)

Looking through your milankovitch information, nobody right out actually connects this with our current global warming.

I think you're greatly exaggerating the role of the sun in global warming. Check out this link:
Climate Myths:Global warming is down to the Sun, not humans

So why don't you accept the latest IPCC findings that global warming is happening and they are 90%(?) certain that humanity is affecting it?

[trev]

if you seriously believe that reducing emissions and switching to green (or less pollutive) power sources where possible is not in our best interests or worth trying to achieve that's sad.

i think you just get off on trying to be "different" or having a different opinion to the common view, even if it's silly.

if it's not the most important factor facing the world right now (which i agree it might not be) it doesn't stop it being worthwhile. and it doesn't mean we shouldn't do whatever is possible to ease the problem and find solutions.

[Jonny5]

at least netphoria is doing its part to conserve our laptop's energy with this sweet black background. easier on our screens.

[Jonny5]

Originally Posted by trev

if you seriously believe that reducing emissions and switching to green (or less pollutive) power sources where possible is not in our best interests or worth trying to achieve that's sad.

i think you just get off on trying to be "different" or having a different opinion to the common view, even if it's silly.

if it's not the most important factor facing the world right now (which i agree it might not be) it doesn't stop it being worthwhile. and it doesn't mean we shouldn't do whatever is possible to ease the problem and find solutions.

was this in response to my post?

what's better? green power sources so that we can keep achieving so and so an end, continuing along a path that maintains our current energy consumption; or creatively changing our practices so we can progressively consume less?

this is the techno-fantasy vs. green-tech stability vs. earth stewardship debate. industrial ascent and creative descent. true sustainability. da da da

[Rider]

Originally Posted by trev

how stupid can you be?

white = reflects sun and heat

black = absorbs sun and heat.

so if you want to use solar panels, which use the energy and heat from the sun to generate electricity, of course black is the best choice.

and if you want to keep a house cool, painting the roof white is a great idea.

i don't see anything idiotic there.


most of the "fucked up shit" is caused by pollutants. global warming emissions are pollutants too, which also have other effects other than just global warming, regardless if you believe so.

taking a negative stance against something because it's "not as positive as it claims to be" is pretty stupid.

just because reducing emissions might not reduce global warming doesn't mean it's bad to do so, it will have other advantages too.

and then if the huge likelihood chance that you are wrong turns out to be true, then it will be even more important of an achievement.

You have no clue what the fuck you are talking about. You have no clue what a heat island is and how it's horrible for cities and energy savings. Cities are 20 degrees hotter because of everything black, black top roads, dark roofing etc. So there for if you put solar panels one everything you will just make the cities even fucking hotter thus cause people to use more energy to cool their, which kind of overrides the tiny amount of energy you get from a solar panel. From now please have some fucking clue what you are talking about before you reply.

[<sp3]

BumbleBeeMouth -

good points.. i have heard about all of those arguments. Even if they are not as strong as some people make them out to be, they do serve to well show how little we understand about something so completely mind-blowingly complicated and dynamic as our solar system. To think that any one dude and his team of washington cronies who makes an "inconvenient" movie has ALL the answers is complete and utter bullshit.

I challenge anyone who thinks bumbleBeeMouth's points arn't valid to prove it.

Originally Posted by Jonny5

it's not about global warming. it's not about al gore.

the environmental movement is important, but so many of the changes we need to make for environmental problem solving are things we should be doing regardless of whether the ice caps are melting or not. whether it be building spiritual connections with nature, practicing healthy ecological stewardship, or supporting local economies...we don't need global warming as our excuse. and it all feeds back to social and cultural concerns. not just the jolly green giant or the lorax or what have you

it should be called global weirding instead.

Good post. What we should start doing is stop being stupid.. ie relying on on foreign energy sources. There is no reason whatsoever that a nation with as much industrial might and capabilities as the united states should not be able to sustain her own power/energy requirements from resources found within her own borders. I am talking about nuclear, geothermal, hydroelectric, solar, and to a small extent, wind. Coal, oil and natural gas are terrible, in-efficient wastes of money, and forgetting the entire global warming argument completely, certainly do nothing to help the air quality of the cities nearby.

The problem is those morons who keep getting elected to washington, are much too concerned with the ideas of the fickle masses, and the large companies who payed for their campaign to ever do anything about it.

Originally Posted by trev

how stupid can you be?

Originally Posted by trev

if you seriously believe that reducing emissions and switching to green (or less pollutive) power sources where possible is not in our best interests or worth trying to achieve that's sad.

i think you just get off on trying to be "different" or having a different opinion to the common view, even if it's silly.

Stop attacking people. Stop for a minute and think.. do you actually know what you are talking about? Are you involved in new research on the causes and effects of global warming? Do you even fully understand the basic physics of the greenhouse effect? or do you just read a few condensed, one-sided articles on the internet and appoint yourself an expert on the topic?

The problem with people today, and the reason why global warming seems like such a big deal, is because there is a lot of money spent, buy very cunning politicians who really want everyone to believe everything they say. From here it is just human nature to talk about what we have been sold into thinking.. to amplify some story that we heard so each time it sounds more interesting.

Originally Posted by dean_r_koontz

new rules: no more hummers, jeeps, limosines, private jets, yachts. those should all be forbidden outright. a certain limit to gallons/mile of any car that can be used. higher taxes on meat production, especially meat that is produced by animals that emits a lot of methane. the united states should start getting a decent mass transportation system. the united states should stop sucking and being evil. all people in the united states should be shot if they don't comply.

Communist.

Originally Posted by dean_r_koontz

money should be taken from the west to help developing countries get energy from nuclear power. no more destruction of big forest areas in said developing contries. give money. plant more forests. plant a big forest on russia.

I hope you are joking, either that or you are an idiot. First of all, we shouldn't hand out nuclear secrets like playing cards. Developing countries don't have the technical resources and experience to run nuclear power plants safely. Developing countries dont have the energy demand to warrant nuclear power plants. Large countries with industrial capability and large energy demand (like the united states) should have more nuclear power plants.

Originally Posted by Rider

If you want to have an honest discussion. What the hell will taxing beef do?

He is referring to the fact that methane is a much stronger greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. Cows fart methane. If enormous amounts of methane were suddenly released into the environment, it would cause global catastrophe at a much higher rate than if it were carbon dioxide.

It is a theory which spans from small, laboratory based experiments, and counts for nothing on a global scale.

Literal bullshit.

[trev]

Originally Posted by Rider

You have no clue what the fuck you are talking about. You have no clue what a heat island is and how it's horrible for cities and energy savings. Cities are 20 degrees hotter because of everything black, black top roads, dark roofing etc. So there for if you put solar panels one everything you will just make the cities even fucking hotter thus cause people to use more energy to cool their, which kind of overrides the tiny amount of energy you get from a solar panel. From now please have some fucking clue what you are talking about before you reply.

not at all. urban heat islands are not linked to global warming, it's much more of a temporary issue. green power = number one priority, so black for sdolar panles is more important than negating the heat island effect. but for other less important things, such as roofing, any steps / measures that can be taken are good.

there is nothing contradictory there. people should stop trying to pick apart suggestions and solutions for not being complete or perfect and start doing whatever they can. a little is better than nothing.

[trev]

Originally Posted by Jonny5

was this in response to my post?

no, of course not. i agree with you. it was in response to bumblebee.

[<sp3]

Originally Posted by Rider

You have no clue what the fuck you are talking about. You have no clue what a heat island is and how it's horrible for cities and energy savings. Cities are 20 degrees hotter because of everything black, black top roads, dark roofing etc. So there for if you put solar panels one everything you will just make the cities even fucking hotter thus cause people to use more energy to cool their, which kind of overrides the tiny amount of energy you get from a solar panel. From now please have some fucking clue what you are talking about before you reply.

agreed trev is an idiot.. but there is a little bit more to it than that. The black solar panels will convert more sun energy (which would have been converted directly into heat) into electrical energy and therefore less total heat.

Now depending on what that electrical energy is used for, may or may not make the cities alot hotter. I think the bigger problem than the color of the roof is a small city with a million people in it all running their own personal air conditioner.. but you are right there are alot of conflicting theories behind the environmental wackos.

[<sp3]

Originally Posted by trev

just because reducing emissions might not reduce global warming doesn't mean it's bad to do so, it will have other advantages too.

ill agree with you here.

There is absolutely no advantage to generating electricity with coal, oil, and natural gas over other more advanced technologies.

Completely ignoring the global warming issue, we really should get our act together and stop wasting money and destroying the economy/stability of this country.

[fluxequalsrad]

is there any place to go for good information about this issue? They all seem like nut/retard arguments on either side whenever I try to read about it...

[trev]

Originally Posted by

Stop attacking people. Stop for a minute and think.. do you actually know what you are talking about? Are you involved in new research on the causes and effects of global warming? Do you even fully understand the basic physics of the greenhouse effect? or do you just read a few condensed, one-sided articles on the internet and appoint yourself an expert on the topic?

The problem with people today, and the reason why global warming seems like such a big deal, is because there is a lot of money spent, buy very cunning politicians who really want everyone to believe everything they say. From here it is just human nature to talk about what we have been sold into thinking.. to amplify some story that we heard so each time it sounds more interesting.

yes, i know what i'm talking about
no, i'm not involved with research
yes, i understand the sciences behind the phenomena which we are discussing
no, i don't just read a few, i talk to lots of people, and read from many, mainly objective sources. i don't consume much of the commercial media content at all.
no, i don't appoint myself an "expert"

the problem you address is because only now is it becoming such a large issue, and reaching out to enough people for it to become a political issue with any weight.

i've been interested in these issues for over 15 years, as soon as i was aware of them. through biology, physics, geography in high school through to discussion forums at major universities across australia, i do my best to find unbiased factual information.

it really makes me sad how people use these issues for personal attention, and mis-information for alternative motives.

what have i said that makes you think i'm in that group?

my main point has been: regardless of how people may think other factors affect global warming (and how i disagree), that reducing human impact on environmental change in all areas is important and should not be considered "wrong" or "useless" just because it is not the only perfect solution.

[<sp3]

Originally Posted by fluxequalsrad

is there any place to go for good information about this issue? They all seem like nut/retard arguments on either side whenever I try to read about it...

unfortunately no, not many.. not on the internet anyway. Everything is complete hype, designed to either scare you into believing, or undercut all the arguments of the people trying to scare you. Just make sure you read both sides of the issue.

There is a great book that talks about the actual mechanics of what happens to heat or cool the earth.. putting the science into easy to understand terms and such, without trying to sell you on one side of the debate or another, and i cant remember what it is called and it is pissing me off right now.. ill figure it out and post it back here. Its great because it gives a good foundation of knowledge to people who wouldn't otherwise know what is really going on, so they can then read the articles and start to form an educated opinion.

Fuck, cant remember still, it has been a while. Ill email my uncle, he still has a copy i think.

[<sp3]

Originally Posted by trev

what have i said that makes you think i'm in that group?

my main point has been: regardless of how people may think other factors affect global warming (and how i disagree), that reducing human impact on environmental change in all areas is important and should not be considered "wrong" or "useless" just because it is not the only perfect solution.

i think it was your calling people stupid that made me think you were one of those who goes around calling everyone an idiot because they know how global warming works because al gore told them so. If i have done so in error, i apologize.

If you want to cut pollution down than fine, i am on your side.. but it is for completely different reasons. Accusing people of getting their kicks because they purposely think outside the box just to piss everyone else off is crap. Unless you can talk intelligently about this topic without cut and pasting from wikipedia, then it might do you some good to go read up on the topics that BumbleBeeMouth is talking about. They arn't as glamorous as al gore's movie, but they most certainly hold water.

[The Omega Concern]

originally posted by Debaser:

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeMouth
Im all for conservation. but fuck global warming. trust me. its the biggest scam since vietnam



what makes you think so?

The biggest issue I had/have with GW is the demogaugery Al Gore puts forth, particularly the rhetoric about the "debate is over" non-sense.



http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...3-68f67ebd151c


from the above article:


Lord Christopher Monckton, a UK climate researcher, had a blunt message for UN climate conference participants on Monday.

"Climate change is a non-problem. The right answer to a non problem is to have the courage to do nothing," Monckton told participants.

"The UN conference is a complete waste of our time and your money and we should no longer pay the slightest attention to the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change,)"


Can't figure out what's worse, the IPCC or the "Rock Stars" who gussied up to Al Gore during his stupifying agenda driven brainwashing concert.

[<sp3]

Originally Posted by The Omega Concern

Can't figure out what's worse, the IPCC or the "Rock Stars" who gussied up to Al Gore during his stupifying agenda driven brainwashing concert.

my heart sunk a little bit when i found out the pumpkins were doing that show.. when billy was a complete dick-head on stage with his zeitgeist airplane banner circling the stadium i was relieved though. Good old billy. Fuck you al gore.

[Rider]

Originally Posted by

BumbleBeeMouth -

good points.. i have heard about all of those arguments. Even if they are not as strong as some people make them out to be, they do serve to well show how little we understand about something so completely mind-blowingly complicated and dynamic as our solar system. To think that any one dude and his team of washington cronies who makes an "inconvenient" movie has ALL the answers is complete and utter bullshit.

I challenge anyone who thinks bumbleBeeMouth's points arn't valid to prove it.





Good post. What we should start doing is stop being stupid.. ie relying on on foreign energy sources. There is no reason whatsoever that a nation with as much industrial might and capabilities as the united states should not be able to sustain her own power/energy requirements from resources found within her own borders. I am talking about nuclear, geothermal, hydroelectric, solar, and to a small extent, wind. Coal, oil and natural gas are terrible, in-efficient wastes of money, and forgetting the entire global warming argument completely, certainly do nothing to help the air quality of the cities nearby.

The problem is those morons who keep getting elected to washington, are much too concerned with the ideas of the fickle masses, and the large companies who payed for their campaign to ever do anything about it.





Stop attacking people. Stop for a minute and think.. do you actually know what you are talking about? Are you involved in new research on the causes and effects of global warming? Do you even fully understand the basic physics of the greenhouse effect? or do you just read a few condensed, one-sided articles on the internet and appoint yourself an expert on the topic?

The problem with people today, and the reason why global warming seems like such a big deal, is because there is a lot of money spent, buy very cunning politicians who really want everyone to believe everything they say. From here it is just human nature to talk about what we have been sold into thinking.. to amplify some story that we heard so each time it sounds more interesting.



Communist.




I hope you are joking, either that or you are an idiot. First of all, we shouldn't hand out nuclear secrets like playing cards. Developing countries don't have the technical resources and experience to run nuclear power plants safely. Developing countries dont have the energy demand to warrant nuclear power plants. Large countries with industrial capability and large energy demand (like the united states) should have more nuclear power plants.






He is referring to the fact that methane is a much stronger greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. Cows fart methane. If enormous amounts of methane were suddenly released into the environment, it would cause global catastrophe at a much higher rate than if it were carbon dioxide.

It is a theory which spans from small, laboratory based experiments, and counts for nothing on a global scale.

Literal bullshit.

I agree with the cows and methane part and I understand that. My problem is with the taxes. Either you try to take the money and use it to promote green causes, or they use it as a way to try to reduce dependence on beef by raising the price. Neither model will actually work IMO.

[trev]

i'll call whoever the fuck i want to call any names i like, it's completely irrelevant to the issue. you become the close-minded individual if you let that affect your judgement.

when have said anything about al gore? or even wiki? what have i cut and pasted?

you (and others in this thread) have proven you don't read or comprehend something that doesn't fit what you believe a credible argument should. "oh one of his first posts was name calling, he knows nothing", "he's trying to simplify the issue, he knows nothing".

as i said, show me something i wrote. i wouldn't call conspiracy theories "thinking outside the box" but i would think a lot of it is for attention, in one way or another. just look at any other conspiracy theory and the people pushing them, and their motives.

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by sp3

Stop attacking people.

okay...

Originally Posted by sp3

I hope you are joking, either that or you are an idiot.

Originally Posted by sp3

agreed trev is an idiot.

Originally Posted by sp3

Fuck you al gore.

hmmmm...

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by

I challenge anyone who thinks bumbleBeeMouth's points arn't valid to prove it.

I challenge you to read the 6th previous post before yours.

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by fluxequalsrad

is there any place to go for good information about this issue? They all seem like nut/retard arguments on either side whenever I try to read about it...

Climate change: A guide for the perplexed


Site run by actual climate scientists:
http://realclimate.org/

[The Omega Concern]

originally posted by < sp3:

my heart sunk a little bit when i found out the pumpkins were doing that show.. when billy was a complete dick-head on stage with his zeitgeist airplane banner circling the stadium i was relieved though. Good old billy. Fuck you al gore.

well...little doubt the record label had a hand in it and Billy rolled with it. Oppurtunity lost however to really make some noise and get some attention...i wouldn't expect him to call Al Gore out on stage. But, the event came and went and is now completely forgettable.

[redbull]

just get rid of all cows. more food, less farts

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by The Omega Concern

The biggest issue I had/have with GW is the demogaugery Al Gore puts forth, particularly the rhetoric about the "debate is over" non-sense.

Well it's over for the most part with the vast majority of climate scientists, would you admit to that? You have the IPCC that represents tens of thousands of scientists around the world. 11,000 signatories alone that signed a letter condemning this administration's stance on climate science. And how many are on the most vaunted signature list of climate change skeptics? 60. Of which most of them are not actively studying climate change.

Climate myths: Many leading scientists question climate change

Originally Posted by The Omega Concern

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...3-68f67ebd151c

You do realize that the EPW is headed by a certifiable loon in Jim Inhofe , right? A christian fundamentalist who compares environmentalists to nazis and calls global warming the "second largest hoax ever played on the American people after separation of church and state".

Originally Posted by The Omega Concern

from the above article:


Lord Christopher Monckton, a UK climate researcher, had a blunt message for UN climate conference participants on Monday.

"Climate change is a non-problem. The right answer to a non problem is to have the courage to do nothing," Monckton told participants.

"The UN conference is a complete waste of our time and your money and we should no longer pay the slightest attention to the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change,)"

I'm not a scientist but I can post a climate scientists' rebuttal to Monckton to speak for itself.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php...uckoo-science/

[yoshinobu's revenge]

Originally Posted by dean_r_koontz

new rules: no more hummers, jeeps, limosines, private jets, yachts. those should all be forbidden outright. a certain limit to gallons/mile of any car that can be used. higher taxes on meat production, especially meat that is produced by animals that emits a lot of methane. the united states should start getting a decent mass transportation system. the united states should stop sucking and being evil. all people in the united states should be shot if they don't comply.

i agree completely. another thing that should be outlawed is irresponsible use of natural resources for marketing. those little vehicles with mini-billboards that drive around all day. how is that any kind of useful use of gasoline.

also the government/military needs to stop wasting just to get their annual budgets for the next year. quit dumping jet fuel to ensure next year's grant allocation.


my opinion on climate change - yes we do not have definitive proof there is damage but there are enough probable causal links and potentially correct hypotheses involving emissions etc that it is stupid to just say "well, we've polluted a lot but we don't know if it's doing anything. therefore even tho we can change our ways we shouldn't bother because there's no hard proof." by the time hard proof emerges it's too late, and if hard proof never emerges, then great! we're all safe.

[bardy]

Originally Posted by dean_r_koontz

money should be taken from the west to help developing countries get energy from nuclear power. no more destruction of big forest areas in said developing contries. give money. plant more forests. plant a big forest on russia.

I havent read this thread but I think more global warming would allow for more tree species to survive in russia

[bardy]

and global warming is a natrual process of this planet

we are affecting it but.... really by how much? I mean it's going to happen whether we like it or not we cant stop the temperature at the one we like. I think that we should do what we can to stop pollution and carbon dioxide because it's not having a great effect on the environment. but I just dont like these pictures painted like if we stopped emitting any type of gas tomorrow our planet would stay the temperature it is right now forever

I think the bigger mystery is how the planet comes out of ice ages in the first place