Secret Show, Berlin (6/5/07)

[Gershwin79]

Originally Posted by drbenway

Why?

Oh well, because they play really nicely together, sound was good, chemistry was great. I liked Jeff and Ginger and they did a great job and then they walk offstage and b0lly sits there alone with jimmy talking about THEIR new album.

I don't think the Smashing Pumpkins need James or D'Arcy (although I would have liked to see them) but

when they did this interview thing, there was no band there. SP are a band. In the end it was just b0lly, the interview part could have been for Zwan or TFE as well. I mean even if Jeff and Ginger had nothing to say they should have stayed on stage.

Maybe we'll see that later on when everyone gets used to it (including the band). I mean things have to grow together, I had the same experience with my former band after we exchanged 2 members. It really takes some time to know if they will fit and to get closer together even if you can play together nicely.

I mean b0lly and jimmy know each other for how long? 20 years. As a 27 year old musician joining such a band with 2 such people it will be quite hard to get in and become a friend, that takes some time. maybe later, we'll see.

[drbenway]

Originally Posted by steelfaerie

You know, I don't know. Something about it right now just tastes off to me, though.

I think the "band" image has been totally manufactured from the get-go, first with The Smashing Pumpkins, and then with Zwan. Corgan, like a lot of people here (and I don't mean that derisively), are infatuated with the idea of a band. But, functionally speaking, a band should operate as a collective, a group of individuals whose respective musicalities contribute to a distinctive, overarching sound. We're not seeing that here, nor have we ever. What we've gotten, instead, are heavily mediated impressions of a group of "personalities".

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by Gershwin79

Questions had to be handed in before and the woman from the Radio station asked a few of them. Most were useless like "what have you done in Berlin so far" and stuff like that.

Asked about the album B and J told how they recorded it and stayed in a house together and stuff like that.

Someone asked about the white clothes: Jimmy said something like, it's not uncomfortable physically but it kinda hurts the eye lol

Well I think the Jeff and Ginger question was answered by itself. After the set they went off stage and only B0lly and Jimmy stayed to answer questions...

it's nice that they want to talk to the fans and all, but they are avoiding any subject of more than passing interest. and jeff and ginger are either in the band or not; has billy even mentioned them at all yet?

Before the concert started the band was sitting outside eating and drinking. I couldn't see Ginger and there was a blond woman sitting at the table and from some distance she looked like D'Arcy. Me and my mate were like "omfg D'Arcy???" but when we passed the table we noticed it was not her lol

darcy is the new elvis, except she's alive and not fat.

[waltermcphilp]

Originally Posted by drbenway

He's always done this, I think. Isn't there even some footage on Vieuphoria of him lingering after the show?

i think he even broke out an acapela version of "sweet sweet"

[skipgo]

Originally Posted by drbenway

He's always done this, I think. Isn't there even some footage on Vieuphoria of him lingering after the show?

yeah, the first time i saw the band in 94 he stayed out on stage long after the rest of the band left, just getting feedback from his monitors. He didn't leave until someone threw something at him....

[steelfaerie]

Originally Posted by drbenway

I think the "band" image has been totally manufactured from the get-go, first with The Smashing Pumpkins, and then with Zwan. Corgan, like a lot of people here (and I don't mean that derisively), are infatuated with the idea of a band. But, functionally speaking, a band should operate as a collective, a group of individuals whose respective musicalities contribute to a distinctive, overarching sound. We're not seeing that here, nor have we ever. What we've gotten, instead, are heavily mediated impressions of a group of "personalities".

You know, that's a really excellent point, and I don't mean that sarcastically. In that case, I want my group of personalities instead of disposable touring musicians.

[drbenway]

Anywho, we're getting off-topic, here.

Where's the boot?

[sweetanthony]

Originally Posted by drbenway

I think the "band" image has been totally manufactured from the get-go, first with The Smashing Pumpkins, and then with Zwan. Corgan, like a lot of people here (and I don't mean that derisively), are infatuated with the idea of a band. But, functionally speaking, a band should operate as a collective, a group of individuals whose respective musicalities contribute to a distinctive, overarching sound. We're not seeing that here, nor have we ever. What we've gotten, instead, are heavily mediated impressions of a group of "personalities".

I think you're dead on. When they were in their prime (SD into MCIS) we forgot about how it really was and were blinding by the awesomeness. Now we have had time to think about it (as have they) and its just sooooooo different, that there's no illusion anymore.

It is what it is. Just love the music and forget all the cute and cuddley shit that came with James and D'arcy. They're gone and so is the feeling of our little Pumpkins.

All they can do now is let Jeff and Ginger get more comfortable and gel as musicians... the Residencies should allow them to do that. And we'll be blown away by their rock because this IS the best four (five actually) musicians SP has ever assembled.

[drbenway]

Originally Posted by steelfaerie

You know, that's a really excellent point, and I don't mean that sarcastically. In that case, I want my group of personalities instead of disposable touring musicians.

I suppose we could look at it this way: previously we had personalities who couldn't play, now we have people who can play with no personality (that we've been allowed exposure to, anyway). So, which is the better situation?

[wHATcOLOR]

kenny aranoff is going to kick your ass bro

and you can expect a slap from garson as well

[Caine Walker]

if all of you retards will remember correctly, billy was the only one who stuck around and thanked the crowd after Machina shows.

they were never a *band* who came together to write songs as a group. if you want that, listen to Tool or something.

[Axis of Action]

Originally Posted by sweetanthony

I think you're dead on. When they were in their prime (SD into MCIS) we forgot about how it really was and were blinding by the awesomeness. Now we have had time to think about it (as have they) and its just sooooooo different, that there's no illusion anymore.

It is what it is. Just love the music and forget all the cute and cuddley shit that came with James and D'arcy. They're gone and so is the feeling of our little Pumpkins.

All they can do now is let Jeff and Ginger get more comfortable and gel as musicians... the Residencies should allow them to do that. And we'll be blown away by their rock because this IS the best four (five actually) musicians SP has ever assembled.

I don't think WE forgot how it really was, I think that's when it was really crystallized. Specifically, towards the end of the SD tour. As the Pumpkins became bigger, and Billy realized they were becoming huge on the album was written 85% by him, he probably figured he was the band. So he kept the band around because that was the status quo, and when he had to boot Jimmy, he realized that the rest of the members were flexible too. He exercised that option again in 99 with Darcy, and since the end of SP1 he has essentially cherry picked who he chooses to surround himself with.

I'd love to see Jeff specifically stay around, but who knows with Billy at this point.

[drbenway]

Originally Posted by Caine Walker

if all of you retards will remember correctly, billy was the only one who stuck around and thanked the crowd after Machina shows.

they were never a *band* who came together to write songs as a group. if you want that, listen to Tool or something.

I think we just finished covering all of that. Thanks, though.

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by drbenway

I think the "band" image has been totally manufactured from the get-go, first with The Smashing Pumpkins, and then with Zwan. Corgan, like a lot of people here (and I don't mean that derisively), are infatuated with the idea of a band. But, functionally speaking, a band should operate as a collective, a group of individuals whose respective musicalities contribute to a distinctive, overarching sound. We're not seeing that here, nor have we ever. What we've gotten, instead, are heavily mediated impressions of a group of "personalities".

have you ever watched interviews of the pumpkins, or stage behaviour, where darcy gives billy a look or makes some comment about him which indicates she disagrees with him, or thinks he's being an ass? that's the difference. an employee would never do that (twice, anyway). you're referring to some mythic ideal of the perfect band.

[skipgo]

Originally Posted by sweetanthony

forget all the cute and cuddley shit that came with James and D'arcy.

James and D'arcy were so cute and cuddley. Like little teddy bears. Or kittens.

[drbenway]

Originally Posted by Axis of Action

I don't think WE forgot how it really was, I think that's when it was really crystallized. Specifically, towards the end of the SD tour. As the Pumpkins became bigger, and Billy realized they were becoming huge on the album was written 85% by him, he probably figured he was the band. So he kept the band around because that was the status quo, and when he had to boot Jimmy, he realized that the rest of the members were flexible too. He exercised that option again in 99 with Darcy, and since the end of SP1 he has essentially cherry picked who he chooses to surround himself with.

I'd love to see Jeff specifically stay around, but who knows with Billy at this point.

From the get-go he's gone out of his way to take most of the credit for the band. He even bent over backwards to make sure everyone knew he played most of the guitar leads on Gish. It was his band. It existed in his head before he even met the others.

[Gershwin79]

oh, I forgot one more thing:

Someone asked about the 2007 thing in Pisces and billy seemed kinda confused. Some weird answer. it has nothing to do with a fortuneteller but he thinks it's weird those numbers and all fit so nicely and he's superstitious or something like that. didn't really get it as I couldn't really hear the person who asked it.

[fomm]

You know, I would probably do the same: slowly introduce the new members to the long time fans, who loved Billy, Jimmy, D'Arcy and James for all these years for being Smashing Pumpkins. Billy probably doesn't even know the new members are accepted very well by the majority of fans, way better than expected.
What kind of questions should Ginger and Jeff answer anyway? They got into the band after Zeitgeist was done. Give them time to build up their history with the Smashing Pumpkins.

[Axis of Action]

Originally Posted by drbenway

From the get-go he's gone out of his way to take most of the credit for the band. He even bent over backwards to make sure everyone knew he played most of the guitar leads on Gish. It was his band. It existed in his head before he even met the others.

That's very true, but I think SD let the ego out. The success gave him the right to take credit, and complete control. James was lucky to get a song in on MCIS.

[drbenway]

Originally Posted by RenewRevive

have you ever watched interviews of the pumpkins, or stage behaviour, where darcy gives billy a look or makes some comment about him which indicates she disagrees with him, or thinks he's being an ass? that's the difference. an employee would never do that (twice, anyway). you're referring to some mythic ideal of the perfect band.

What? C'mon, man... Zeppelin? The Beatles? Queen? Radiohead? Any of these bands ring a bell? The "ideal" you're accusing me of referring to happens all the time, I'm just saying it doesn't ALWAYS happen, nor does it need to to generate good music.

[RenewRevive]

he's into numerology, no doubt or some other new-agey bullshit.

[wHATcOLOR]

i hope someone prints up an easy-to-read summary with pictures of these so-called "long horses" and brings it to one of the ashville or sf shows and asks bill to say whether or not he was specifically referencing these animals

[Caine Walker]

Originally Posted by drbenway

I think we just finished covering all of that. Thanks, though.

i must have missed it in the smarm of people who fucking whine about everything. thanks, though.

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by drbenway

What? C'mon, man... Zeppelin? The Beatles? Queen? Radiohead? Any of these bands ring a bell? The "ideal" you're accusing me of referring to happens all the time, I'm just saying it doesn't ALWAYS happen, nor does it need to to generate good music.

agreed, i'm just puzzled that people are choosing to debate this now. we've known for a long time that it was billy's band; he is the great pumpkin, after all. what i was indicating is that a band can still function as such, dynamically, even with a defined focal point, creatively and in terms of dominant persona. this does not make it "billy and the pumpkins" though.

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by wHATcOLOR

i hope someone prints up an easy-to-read summary with pictures of these so-called "long horses" and brings it to one of the ashville or sf shows and asks bill to say whether or not he was specifically referencing these animals

what are they, some kind of pig?

[Gershwin79]

ok one last thing:

the radio was there, I don't know if or when they will show it but as Anja Caspary was doing the interview I guess it might be next monday evening from 9 to eleven, I'll mail them and ask. They have all shows as live webcast. There were 2 guys filming it as well, dunno where they came from though.

and here's the official setlist:

http://www.smashingpumpkins.com/gall...lin_060507.jpg

[Axis of Action]

Originally Posted by RenewRevive

agreed, i'm just puzzled that people are choosing to debate this now. we've known for a long time that it was billy's band; he is the great pumpkin, after all. what i was indicating is that a band can still function as such, dynamically, even with a defined focal point, creatively and in terms of dominant persona. this does not make it "billy and the pumpkins" though.

I think we've all known this for sometime, there had just been a flicker of hope that maybe Ginger and Jeff would stick around for more than a tour.

[drbenway]

Originally Posted by RenewRevive

agreed, i'm just puzzled that people are choosing to debate this now. we've known for a long time that it was billy's band; he is the great pumpkin, after all. what i was indicating is that a band can still function as such, dynamically, even with a defined focal point, creatively and in terms of dominant persona. this does not make it "billy and the pumpkins" though.

I think the question underlying a lot of these debates is, why resurrect the band at all? I think it's a question of what the band is and means to Billy Corgan, and his perception of what the band is is completely different from what it is to a lot of fans. Plus there's the ever-present (and valid) suspicion of financial/careerist motivations.

[AlphaCentauri]

thank god they left bullet out. thank god.

[Axis of Action]

Question for those who were there: did they play Shame circa 2007, or Shame circa 1998?