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Old 03-30-2007, 01:21 PM   #1
bluesky
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Question Definitive: MCIS and the Holocaust.

Yes, I'm making myself a big old target by posting this as my first post. I was on this message board and Listessa a million years ago and when my email expired so did my account. Oops.

Anyway, I'm a grad student in creative writing, and for my thesis I have to develop a literature project. I got permission to do look at the connection between MCIS and holocaust literature.

A recap follows. Skip past the next part if you already know:

------

In 1996 there was a Listessa thread talking about several books by Elie Wiesel that used the exact same poetic turns as songs from MCIS. Zero was supposedly 1-1 accurate in parts "cleanliness is godliness and god is empty," etc. This thread went on for some months, with some people calling BC a plaigiarist and others saying it was literary allusion. However, as far as I know the Wiesel book quoted does not actually exist.

Finally, the stink was big enough that Rolling Stone asked about it in an interview, and BC gave complete denial, saying that he'd never read Wiesel. There isn't anything in Night, Dawn, or Day that seems to point to a specific reference.

However there are some interesting correlations. A (possibly coincidental) turn is Wielsel's repeated apprehensions of "infinite madness" in his book Twilight, but these aren't the best references. In Primo Levi's book "If This Was A Man" and S.S. officer makes the claim "Heir ist kein warum" or "here is no why" and since then the quote has become a sort of code word for the irrationality of the concentration camps. Likewise, Wiesel is a distinguished Mellon Professor of the Humanities at Boston University... the world "melon" has only one "l" and no word is spelled "mellon." Rolling Stone also reported on the photography for the BWBW video which was inspired by pictures of labor camps in Brazil.

-----------------------------------

So I'm at split ends here. On the one hand, I've come across absolutely nothing that would be a "smoking gun" for the references, but on the other hand there are enough similarities that it suggests some sort of conscious approach.

This is where I need your help:

I've tried searching the Listessa archives and writing the list administrator, but what I *really* need is information of the original 1996 thread. It contains actual quotes from the book and from the album, and without being able to look at both I can't determine if there's a correlation.

If there's isn't a correlation, it's fine: the paper is an exploration, not an expose. But I think that enough people listen to Pumpkins music and enough people have read Wiesel's books that this is a subject that really needs more rigorous discussion.

Please don't flame me. I'm posting this long post out of necessity.

Nice to be back on your lovely message board again.

~ Connor

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 01:25 PM   #2
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this "hier ist kein warum" (correct spelling) stuff is fascinating...never heard about it before

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 01:25 PM   #3
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I should add that I can't find the archive of the thread on SPFC/Listessa. The thread was from 1996, but the archive stops in 1998.

That's probably a significant detail.

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 01:36 PM   #4
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It was a hoax, the books by Wiesel. I remember looking into this back in '96. I even talked to Elie about it. 100% fake. He never heard of the books referenced, never wrote the lines, but he was flattered that people were reading and searching for his materials.

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 01:42 PM   #5
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See, after reading most of those books I can believe that, but I still want to look at the original thread to make a comparison if possible.

And it *doesn't* really explain all the non-Wiesel connections. The "mellon" thing and the "infinite madness," okay, that might just be a weird coincidence, but I think the BWBW video and "here is no why" are more substantial. On the night before the release of MCIS BC told the Chicago Reader that the song's name was a transcription error, but how much sense does that make?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. The whole thing is worth a discussion at any rate.

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 02:04 PM   #6
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Yes, I remember that discussion...

Pretty much at the exact time that this was being discussed I was reading or had read the year before the Ellie Wisel (sp?) book.. "Night" (I think it was) and was learning about the Holocaust, in 10th grade? I remember people remarking on the "Mellon" connection (if any) and also something about "Zero".... and something about the little pictoral icons in the lyrics books ...the little bird one sitting on a swing, above Zero I think or Here is No Why, being a Jewish symbol, I also remember something about By Starlight having some symbolism too.

I always thought of these threads of influence (if there is evidence of any) as not a "rip off" by any means on Billy Corgan's part but just perhaps part of a stream of consciousness that found it's way to a similar energy vibration of feeling like a dehumanized person. Or he could have been reading about the subject at the time and some influence came out of it...I don't really see a real strong thread though for a theme but I haven't looked into it much either.

Also Billy Corgan sign is Picies and Picies people according to astrology have an endless capacity for compassion and empathy and are often prone to escapism and fantasy because they are so sensitive that they often feel so much and fall into distraction as not to be overwhelmed by what they feel. They are very often drawn to pain and suffering in the world.

I'm not sure where you might find those archives but I remember what you are refering to. When your paper is done I'd like to read it.

Last edited by mayday : 04-01-2007 at 07:22 PM.

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 04:32 PM   #7
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yeah, i'd definitely like to read it when you're done, too. that sounds awesome. too bad i have nothing to contribute. i didn't even have a computer in 1996. heh...

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 05:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky
On the night before the release of MCIS BC told the Chicago Reader that the song's name was a transcription error, but how much sense does that make?
Makes perfect sense. Vonnegut had one of his characters in Slaughterhouse Five end a chapter with the response, "There Is No Why." I always believe the "t" just got dropped like Billy alluded to.

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 05:07 PM   #9
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This is seems like a very tenuous topic for a grad school thesis

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 06:26 PM   #10
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Hey, good luck with finding it. I wish I could help, but I am sadly just a newbie. This has inspired me to do a bit of reading, thankyou!

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 07:01 PM   #11
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Sounds really interesting to me. Sadly I was 5 at the time, and am therefore of little help. I wouldn't mind having a read when you're done weither.

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 08:02 PM   #12
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i was pretty young too so won't be any help but wouldn't mind a read when you're done too!

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 09:23 PM   #13
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I've been meaning to read that book for ages now - turns out it's a trilogy, eh? At any rate, although I have nothing of import to add to this thread, it has served as the impetus to order the complete trilogy. Look forward to it.

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 10:47 PM   #14
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just checked spfc about here is no why, only alt title listed there was "just between" from back in starchildren times.

i was sure there was another working title of it, from some gravity or mcis demo, can't remember or know where to find it quickly though.

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 10:54 PM   #15
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www.archive.org ?

Also how old are these books? Can't you find them in your school's library (or if not, certainly at another library).

Good luck

 
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Old 03-30-2007, 11:40 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trev
just checked spfc about here is no why, only alt title listed there was "just between" from back in starchildren times.

i was sure there was another working title of it, from some gravity or mcis demo, can't remember or know where to find it quickly though.
it's labeled as "Here Is No Way" on the Billy's Home Demos bootleg, but that doesn't mean anything.

it's also listed as "Here Is Not Why" by BMI, but that doesn't mean much.

 
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Old 03-31-2007, 03:32 AM   #17
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Default A look at BWBW

I just watched BWBW video for the first time in a looong time again.

The song seems to be about how alot of things
Starting with how unfair the world is
"the world is a vampire sent to drain...secret destroyers hold you up to the flame and what do i get for my pain betrayed desires and a piece of game"

maybe i'll show my cool like old "Job"
Job in the Bible lost everything he had and suffered terribly as a test to God...

"despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage".....
rage not being a virtue doesn't bring you closer to God or being let out of the cage so I dont get this

"now I'm naked nothing but an animal, but can you fake it for just one more show.."
some might think animals are outside of divine creation...have no soul..(I dont think this)
but keeping with this idea perhaps they were not created in the traditional thought of what "made in the image of God" is...so naked in this sense may mean fallen from Grace

"tell me I'm the only one, tell me there's no other one Jesus was an only son for you..."
Why would one want to be the ONLY son of God? Was he saying that he envied Jesus? That he wanted to be the Savior?

"someone will say what is lost can never be saved...I still believe that I cannot be saved" proclaiming his rejection of God

In the video those sad people seem to be desperatly exisiting in some slave like dehumanized manner and towards the end they are all after something and I couldn't see what it was... but I think I remember it being a butterfly which is a symbol of Christ but also a symbol of change. Those desperate souls were after salvation or closeness to God...

BC proclaims " and what do you want...I want a change...and what do you got when you feel the same...." so the butterfuly represents what he says he wants (change) but it also represents what he proclaims he can never have (be saved, God, Christ)...clearly this conflict must be a major cause of the frustration as it is for all of us...

 
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Old 03-31-2007, 04:02 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcm
it's labeled as "Here Is No Way" on the Billy's Home Demos bootleg, but that doesn't mean anything.

it's also listed as "Here Is Not Why" by BMI, but that doesn't mean much.
well both would put weight against "here = there" if that was the typo BC was talking about.

But those other mis-spellings might just be mis-spellings (as in the case of the bootleg) or (and this is more so for the BMI one) it could just be BC's thoughts at the time for a title, maybe he was changing it around a bit for a while before he stuck on, or mistakenly had to stick wth here is no why.

 
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Old 03-31-2007, 05:28 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trev
well both would put weight against "here = there" if that was the typo BC was talking about.

But those other mis-spellings might just be mis-spellings (as in the case of the bootleg) or (and this is more so for the BMI one) it could just be BC's thoughts at the time for a title, maybe he was changing it around a bit for a while before he stuck on, or mistakenly had to stick wth here is no why.
there's also "Jennifer Over", "Slow Down", "Whirl"... so who knows whether that title came from Billy or an error at the U.S. copyright office or BMI or wherever and if it's the transcription error he mentioned.

amazingly, they do have Stars Fall In right.

 
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Old 03-31-2007, 05:31 AM   #20
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it's just utterly shocking to me how careless people can be with their data, just outrageous.

 
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Old 03-31-2007, 08:34 AM   #21
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Thanks for your suggestions. There is a lot here that can help me.

I am a little bemused that this would come across as a "tenuous topic" for a thesis... my advisor thought it was perfect. Maybe it's fair I should point out that it's called a "literature project," not a dissertation. That said, it deals with authenticity, ambiguity, the interaction of different media, the impact of one generation upon each other, subtlety of craft, the resolution of authorship, the different possibilities for political and social discourse in art. There is nothing a thoughtful paper on Proust or Nabokov can deliver that this paper cannot deliver.

Anyway, there was a lot that I'd forgotten. I hadn't remembered the Vonnegut quote or the pictures in the MCIS booklet. These are things I'll go looking for.

JRiordan: I gave Archive a shot but they don't have much on Listessa at all.
With regard to the books being published... what I vaguely remember (albeit very vaguely) from the OP was that it cited a book "By Twilight" that contained lyrics from Zero. No book "By Twilight" was ever registered under Wiesel's name. There is a book "Twilight" which talks about "infinite madness" but that isn't much... Other Wiesel books - "Night" "Dawn" "Day" and "the Oath" don't have any explicit mentions.

Pumpkins23836: There are two possibilities with Vonnegut. One is that he is a decisively postmodern writer, and given to playing with us for the sake of playing with us. In which case he meant "There is no why" remind us of "here is no why" without being identical. It's a non-perfect reference, and intended as such. The second is that it's a BC-style "transcription" error that involved punching an extra key. This is an easy accomplishment, because "there" is a word as much as "here," because the sentence still makes sense, and because it was one word out of maybe 40,000, one letter out of maybe 200,000.
In the case of the Pumpkins, there are the same possibilities (is it reasonable to have a "postmodern lyricist"?) If BC is playing with us (or the Chicago reader), he's "joshing" about the origin of the song. On the other hand, a transcription error involves not a keystroke, but a repositioning of words at three or four points in the liner notes, that the reposition makes a lot less sense than the original, that it's one word out of maybe 1,000, and that this is on a CD being proofread as the Virgin records anticipated year's best moneymake.
I just think the "joshing us" makes a lot more sense than the "transcription error."

Raskolnikov: The first book, Night was originally to stand alone. It's more a memoir than a novel. Dawn and Day deal with similar subjects. Together they are meant as a series, but I think it's more of a cycle than a trilogy, since the closest thing to a unifying plot is the holocaust and formation of Israel. Of all his books, though, I liked Twilight the best. It's certainly the best written, and I also thought, the most evocative. Probably less raw than Night though, which is most people's favorite.

Finally:

Trev: Thanks. "Just Between" is the second-highest thing on my wishlist just now.

Mayday: Thanks for all of your thoughts and readings into the BWBW video. I always thought that was one of their best.

Okay, this is long. Thanks again for all your suggestions (though I'll keep checking in if this thread stays active). Since some people are interested in reading this thing when it's finished, I'll let know know, probably early-to-mid May. And if anyone has a lead on that Listessa thread, I will jump for joy.

 
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Old 03-31-2007, 09:03 AM   #23
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wow.

 
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Old 03-31-2007, 09:11 AM   #24
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tcm, You Are Awesome! Thank you so much.
I doubt this'll ever get published, and if it does it'll presumably be in some dusty literary journal, but I'm definitely putting in a shoutout to Netphoria.

 
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Old 03-31-2007, 09:23 AM   #25
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you're welcome, but it's very transparently bullshit. it's amazing looking back at it that anyone took it seriously, let alone that there was a stink over it. at least we can say that we've come a long way.

 
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Old 03-31-2007, 09:28 AM   #26
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Reading it after so many years I'm having the same response. The main thing being, yeah, that "By Starlight" was never written.

The Internets aren't what they used to be, and occasionally that's a good thing.

~ C

 
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Old 03-31-2007, 11:10 AM   #27
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WOW, that puts Night on my reading list for the near future!

Billy's response (denial) seem strange, if he did use some of this stuff then he could easily just admit it, because he uses snippets of the book to make small parts of his songs.

I wonder if this book would be helpful to you:

The God Factor: Inside the Spiritual Lives of Public People
by Cathleen Falsani

It *******s interviews with both Billy and Elie Wiesel. If you wanted to go into the theological side of things it would seem like a good place to find comparison.

 
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Old 03-31-2007, 12:27 PM   #28
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What do you mean "BC used it.."? He creates with symbolism and allusion in most everything. I don't see how he did anything that trespasses Wisel's work, if there is a connection. There is alot to study with his music, but mostly he writes about translating his own experience into his music and his own consciousness which is a sea of interesting thoughts and experiences and intellectual insights. He makes references to lots of literature, art and human experience and spirituality in his work.
There's definately plenty of things to write a paper about.

 
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Old 03-31-2007, 12:32 PM   #29
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There was also supposed to be a book called "Fifty Years after the Eve of the
Destruction By the Holocaust Report." Never existed. All the Holocaust/Billy stuff is BS. Don't believe it.

Billy's songs are all about the Cubs. I'm surprised everyone hasn't figured that out already.

 
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Old 03-31-2007, 01:08 PM   #30
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Well, if nothing else, I think "here is no why" is pretty explicit:

Quote:
And it was in fact so. Driven by thirst, I eyed a fine icicle outside the window, within hand's reach. I opened the window and broke off the icicle but at once a large, heavy guard prowling outside brutally snatched it away from me. 'Warum?' I asked him in my poor German. Hier ist kein warum' (there is no why here), he replied, pushing me inside with a shove.
That's from If This Is a Man by Primo Levi, page 35 of Abacus press edition, originally published 1987, but republished through 2006. It very much exists.

And if people want to get pesky about the "t," there is the Vonnegut thing, and there's also the reference in Martin Amis' Time's Arrow which I believe uses "here." At any rate, "here is no why" usually means holocaust.

Look, I'm not a conspiracy theorist here. I completely buy that the Wiesel connections (including the titles of his books) are either coincidences or fabrications. But I don't buy that "here is no why" is not in any way a holocaust reference (what do we make, by the way, of those "lonely towers of long mistakes"?) I think that mayday had the most interesting take on it so far:

Quote:
He makes references to lots of literature, art and human experience and spirituality in his work.
Just because suzy from Listessa made up a bunch of fictitious references to holocaust books doesn't mean that there's no reference. It's more a matter of taking from each reference what is available and using it to create a fuller, more layered narrative. Personally, I think this just makes the album more interesting and expansive.

~ C

 
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