today is pearl harbor day

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

That's what we get for steaming into Edo Harbor and demanding under show of force that the Jappos end their isolationist policies.

The era of gunboat diplomacy.

You know i have nothing but respect for the Japanese because they went from a feudal culture in the 1860s to threatening world hegemony in less than a century. I mean they destroyed the Russian fleet in 1905 for fuck's sake. Man. Modernization can take root fucking quick. Their biggest mistake was allying with Hitler, which like the historical onion says "Japs ally with white supremisists in incredibly well thought out plan", but they were only playing the same game the Europeans had for centuries.

True, although the atrocities in Manchuria were pretty harsh, you must admit.

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by yo soy el mejor

never forget

Holy shit, getting fired from Queens Of The Stone Age really hit that guy hard

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by RenewRevive

True, although the atrocities in Manchuria were pretty harsh, you must admit.

Yeah but they're kind of old hat for the European colonial powers, when you get down to it. I mean what about the Belgians in the Congo for Christ's sake?

[aurel]

The force feeding of waffles can never be condoned.

[RenewRevive]

Yeah, they were following in well-trodden footsteps. They were excluded somewhat from the old boys club for reasons of ethnicity, hence the strict naval treaties and fuel embargo.

[Trotskilicious]

Yeah I'm not saying their heroes but if we tend to apoligize for the British Empire then I think the Japanese deserve some credit for empire building themselves.

I mean going from isolationist feudal pre-Enlightenment non-industrial agrarian people to industrial superpower in 90 years is pretty nuts. Makes me think I can change my life in a semester.

[RenewRevive]

Do you think there is a lot of apologizing for the British empire going on? It seemingly gets most of the blame for slavery, unfairly.

[aurel]

After days of thunder it's Bruckheimer best.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by RenewRevive

Do you think there is a lot of apologizing for the British empire going on? It seemingly gets most of the blame for slavery, unfairly.

Well I've read histories that seem to slide the blame for the extent and severity of the potato famine off British backs which makes me kind of sick. Besides, it's always "well they were obnoxious and horrendous pricks but look at all the stuff they used to have! That's pretty impressive! They industrialized India and Australia and other places! That's pretty cool! Don't be a hater! It was the style of the time! You can't blame them!" The whole "it was the style of the time" argument rubs me raw because it wasn't that different 100 years ago than it is now. There were still people talking about how being a racist was morally wrong, that blacks were equal to whites, and how the potato famine was a fungus, not wet rot. But these people were shouted down by ignorance. I have a basic theory that I should probably call Sweeney's Law, behind every dumb decision there's at least one guy saying "No, this is wrong," and he is lampooned and ridiculed as being a know-it-all.

Some history professors are more keen on apoligizing for things that were wrong in some kind of revisionist spirit of blamelessness but at the same time I'm not going to hold responsible the people of Britian today for the historical mistakes of the past. I'm not going to cut words when I talk about what happened (I tend to call the second era of imperialism "the rape of Africa"). I think there's a big difference there, and some people don't understand that. In order to understand history and learn from it we have to acknowledge mistakes were made and not try and push it off to some kind of blameless ether.

[RenewRevive]

You make some pertinent points. Clearly, like any powerful state throughout history the British crushed opposition to their rule. Where they deserve credit though, is in allowing enlightened discourse and permitting criticism, even if it was rarely acted upon. Public opinion did ultimately force change however: I believe they were the first nation to ban slavery, despite being the major trader in slaves; not to mention advancements in social justice.

I don't care for apologists per se, but agree that individuals and nations have to be judged within the context of their time. Do not forget that the westerners would not have been capable of such large scale slaving operations in Africa without the enthusiastic cooperation of indigenous tribes.

[Trotskilicious]

You mean indigenous kings that sold their people out for a quick buck? I don't think the tribe should be held responsible for the careless actions of a greedy monarch.

I should say though that in essence, this is what has been going on since the dawn of man. Slave trading, empire building, ethnic cleansing.

[GlasgowKiss]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

I don't think the tribe should be held responsible for the careless actions of a greedy monarch.

Ah you see i never knew the blacks were absolved from blame and whites werent.

[Trotskilicious]

What are you trying to say bud. I mean here I'm thinking you're gonna try to expose me as a hypocrite for holding european governments responsible for empire building, which was popular with the people, and not holding african tribes responsible for selling their own people into slavery...

I mean that's not what you're trying to do is it?

[GlasgowKiss]

Pretty much. And im going to win.

[Trotskilicious]

oh?

you might like to refer back to when i don't hold guilt over the heads of people today...

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

You mean indigenous kings that sold their people out for a quick buck? I don't think the tribe should be held responsible for the careless actions of a greedy monarch.

Well yeah, but I wouldn't blame the 18th-19th century British for the actions of their government either. How democratic was it? The standard of living of many citizens of the wealthiest country on Earth was worse than that of the slaves working the plantations in America.

[GlasgowKiss]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

oh?

you might like to refer back to when i don't hold guilt over the heads of people today...

Now im going to be a bit of a polemic and say that not only are the 'indigenous tribes' as responsible as the 'british', but that the society that enslaves, as well as uses slaves, is more heinous than the society that simply uses slaves.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by RenewRevive

Well yeah, but I wouldn't blame the 18th-19th century British for the actions of their government either. How democratic was it? The standard of living of many citizens of the wealthiest country on Earth was worse than that of the slaves working the plantations in America.

True, true, but it was very much supported by the upper and middle classes. I mean the whole Bring Britain to the World thing and White Man's Burden and pip pip bob's your uncle. I mean the whole deification of Gordon at Khartoum is a good example of the way the press by the end of the century tended to glorify national heroes and stir a sense of national pride.

It's not like even the filthiest, stinkiest, fucker in all of Manchester didn't think himself at least somewhat better than the Irishman, merely because he's British.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by GlasgowKiss

Now im going to be a bit of a polemic and say that not only are the 'indigenous tribes' as responsible as the 'british', but that the society that enslaves, as well as uses slaves, is more heinous than the society that simply uses slaves.

See I don't really think that there's anything to be gained by saying x is worse than y since everyone is human and by nature capable of fucked up things.

[GlasgowKiss]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

See I don't really think that there's anything to be gained by saying x is worse than y since everyone is human and by nature capable of fucked up things.

Really, Britain was just respecting the local customs when they went to Africa. It would have been pretty insulting for them to free those slaves. But eventually Britain got over its politeness and made the world a better place.

[RenewRevive]

Trots,

Fair point. You could say the same about many societies throughout history. Pride through economic power, achievement and culture can lead to arrogance and a sense of racial/national superiority; see the Greek attitude to 'barbarians' i.e. Persians. I think there is an element of this today in modern Japan and China, perhaps even the US wrt the Vietnamese, Iraqis etc.

[Trotskilicious]

I feel like i'm being snuck up on by sneak theives, ready to pounce at any minute.

[DeviousJ]

On the subject, some councillor in Liverpool recently set up a petition to have a bunch of streets renamed - see, many of the streets were named after businessmen who brought prosperity to the city - and Liverpool being the port city that it is, and basically a gateway to the New World, a lot of those businessmen were slavers. So these petitioners weren't pleased about this dark history being honored with streets named after these guys, and wanted to change a bunch of the names to something more palatable. Obviously many people objected and pointed out that, like it or not, it was all part of Liverpool's history and they shouldn't try to sweep it under the rug.

Eventually the petitioners agreed and dropped the idea. Why? One of the streets was named after the prominent slave trader Mr Penny. Anyone heard of Penny Lane? Yeah

[Trotskilicious]

you know i'm actually in favor of keeping that shit up as a reminder. besides, no one really knows who streets are named after. there is hardly a soul in san antonio who knows who Harry Wurzbach or Gus Eckert are.