When did not supporting a war = wishing death on troops?

[sppunk]

I just got completely bitched out in a SUPERMARKET! by some dude who's son is in Iraq.

The quick play-by-play:

My wife and I were picking up a turkey for Thanksgiving. I made some quip about it's a shame I can't be thankful this year of our government and the war hawks in the current White House.

This guy overhears it, and goes nuts on how I'm not a PATRIOT!!! because I don't support the war ... and not supporting the war is the same as wishing death on U.S. troops.

Since when did questioning government become equal to disrespecting the men in uniform?

He then said if it weren't for his son, I wouldn't have an opinion so I should never disrespect and oppose a war. So I asked what he thought about the Bosnian UN invasion in the late 90s, and he of course said that wasn't the same ... as nothing with the UN is worth supporting and Clinton based his war on lies, whereas we knew Saddam was a "bad guy."

So, my question: Is disagreeing with a war equal to not supporting those fighting in said war? I say no.

What say you?

[tear stained glass]

great thread. corganist and debaser will be on the same side.

[ZackZ]

Of course not. I think beating the shit out of the Taliban was a good idea, but this whole Iraq thing is out of control. It's just a revenge war becuase daddy Bush never finished the job.

I don't think anyone that joins the army wants to fight. Especially in a country where the fuckers try to blow you up at every street corner.

In Bosnia, at least we could say we stopped the genocide I guess.

[sleeper]

and here i was doubting whether or not those people really existed. or were at least as prevelant in the states as theyre made out to be. i thought maybe i was falling for the idea too easily, that maybe these narrow minded, hysterical jingoists were just a caricature

[sppunk]

Originally posted by sleeper
and here i was doubting whether or not those people really existed. or were at least as prevelant in the states as theyre made out to be. i thought maybe i was falling for the idea too easily, that maybe these narrow minded, hysterical jingoists were just a caricature

No, these people are everywhere.

Hell, these people far outnumber those who disagree.

[sleeper]

Originally posted by ZackZ
Of course not. I think beating the shit out of the Taliban was a good idea, but this whole Iraq thing is out of control. It's just a revenge war becuase daddy Bush never finished the job.

I don't think anyone that joins the army wants to fight. Especially in a country where the fuckers try to blow you up at every street corner.

In Bosnia, at least we could say we stopped the genocide I guess.

listen, im as against the war as the next guy, but i think its just good policy to resist those kind of corny oversimplified catch-all answers, like the revenge/daddys war thing. that one in particular never really made much sense to me. i know bush once said something like "after all, this guy tried to kill me dad" or whatever, but i wouldnt take something like that into account. were you doing so

and i hate to bring up anything nazi in a conversation like this, but i feel like i should post that famous quote by hermann goering just for perspective:

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?

Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.

Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

[Junebug]

Originally posted by sppunk
No, these people are everywhere.

Hell, these people far outnumber those who disagree.

depends on where you live, I think. the guy was still a jerk, though. I try to attribute weird behavior like that to the stress of having a child overseas.

[Sepiae]

Honestly, disagreeing with and not supporting this war makes my heart go out to those who are fighting even more.

But I also disagree with shitting on the war to the point that the actual good being done gets overshadowed, like American donations to medical clinics helping to immunize children.

[Corganist]

Originally posted by sleeper
and here i was doubting whether or not those people really existed. or were at least as prevelant in the states as theyre made out to be. i thought maybe i was falling for the idea too easily, that maybe these narrow minded, hysterical jingoists were just a caricature

I'd say they're just as prevalent as people who inexplicably bring up their disapproval of the war loud enough for others to hear them in the oh-so politically charged process of supermarket shopping.

But as to the topic of the thread, of course disagreeing with the war is not the same thing as wishing death upon the troops. Only idiots would even suggest such a thing.

[Mayfuck]

You deserved it sppunk. How about you keep your mouth shut about political issues in the supermarket of all places.

[sppunk]

Originally posted by Corganist

I'd say they're just as prevalent as people who inexplicably bring up their disapproval of the war loud enough for others to hear them in the oh-so politically charged process of supermarket shopping.

But as to the topic of the thread, of course disagreeing with the war is not the same thing as wishing death upon the troops. Only idiots would even suggest such a thing.

See, if I was speaking loudly against things it'd make more sense. I was just softly speaking to my wife ... he just was next to me and it was pretty quiet so he could overhear I guess.

[sleeper]

Originally posted by Corganist

I'd say they're just as prevalent as people who inexplicably bring up their disapproval of the war loud enough for others to hear them in the oh-so politically charged process of supermarket shopping.

But as to the topic of the thread, of course disagreeing with the war is not the same thing as wishing death upon the troops. Only idiots would even suggest such a thing.

well, yes, he evidently voiced his disapproval loud enough for others in the immediate area to hear, but i dont think that was the idea. like i dont think he, or a lot of people in general, do these things with an effort to attract attention. from the way he described it, he was just minding his own business, but happened upon one of those annoyingly assertive patriotic windbags. whom, from what im told, are everywhere in your country

[killer_tomato]

Originally posted by Sepiae
Honestly, disagreeing with and not supporting this war makes my heart go out to those who are fighting even more.

But I also disagree with shitting on the war to the point that the actual good being done gets overshadowed, like American donations to medical clinics helping to immunize children.

wow, you're pretty dumb

[Sepiae]

Originally posted by killer_tomato

wow, you're pretty dumb

That's the second time you've insinuated as such in regards to the war, and I really would like to know why.

[BeautifulLoser]

So... all those soldiers that are in Iraq and think the war is bullshit are wishing death on themselves?

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally posted by Corganist

I'd say they're just as prevalent as people who inexplicably bring up their disapproval of the war loud enough for others to hear them in the oh-so politically charged process of supermarket shopping.

But as to the topic of the thread, of course disagreeing with the war is not the same thing as wishing death upon the troops. Only idiots would even suggest such a thing.

I agree with this.

As for the Bosnia thing, the main problem most people have with it is that it seemed a knee jerk cowtow to the UN. US troops under the ocmmand of the UN is not looked on kindly.

Both wars were obviously unnecesary. If we really wanted regime change in Iraq that should have been a targeted strike or black ops mission.

Our resources spent 100% in Afghanistan would have resulted in a lot better outcome.

But we're there in Iraq now, so we really should just crank up the troops, kick out the media, jack up the ammo, and get it over with.

[sleeper]

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son


But we're there in Iraq now, so we really should just crank up the troops, kick out the media, jack up the ammo, and get it over with.

youre joking right? like youre knowingly playing on that stereotypically violent, pig headed jingoist that were all talking about, right? just checking

i agree about increasing the troops though, although not necessarily with americans

[talk show host]

Making that connection is just wishful thinking.

[Future Boy]

Originally posted by Corganist

I'd say they're just as prevalent as people who inexplicably bring up their disapproval of the war loud enough for others to hear them in the oh-so politically charged process of supermarket shopping.

Unless he had a bullhorn and was standing out in front of the place, theres really nothing wrong with him saying it.

[Luke de Spa]

Originally posted by Corganist

I'd say they're just as prevalent as people who inexplicably bring up their disapproval of the war loud enough for others to hear them in the oh-so politically charged process of supermarket shopping.

that was well-played

anyway, isn't supporting a war kind of wishing death on troops?

[Future Boy]

Originally posted by Sepiae

But I also disagree with shitting on the war to the point that the actual good being done gets overshadowed,

I dont think any level of criticism can overshadow it because its 2 entirely different things. Good can come from anything,

[talk show host]

Originally posted by Lucky Day Spa

anyway, isn't supporting a war kind of wishing death on troops?

Genius

[Sepiae]

Originally posted by Future Boy


I dont think any level of criticism can overshadow it because its 2 entirely different things. Good can come from anything,

My dad has done a lot of work, is all, and heard some really good stories about what's going on and every time he shows me his videos or pictures he says, "And this is the stuff you never hear about." Which is kind of a typical "stupid liberal media" thing to say, but he does have a point.

[Corganist]

Originally posted by Future Boy

Unless he had a bullhorn and was standing out in front of the place, theres really nothing wrong with him saying it.

I didn't say there was. It just struck me that his comment was every bit as odd as the other person's reaction to it. If someone was buying a turkey and said out of nowhere "I'm thankful for our President, George W. Bush." and got accosted for it I'd think the same thing. Its nothing to yelled at by nosy eavesdroppers over, but it still seems a strange thing to say given the context.

[sleeper]

Originally posted by Sepiae


My dad has done a lot of work, is all, and heard some really good stories about what's going on and every time he shows me his videos or pictures he says, "And this is the stuff you never hear about." Which is kind of a typical "stupid liberal media" thing to say, but he does have a point.

well, dont you think theres a certain measure of dishonesty involved in digging through mountains of shit and picking out a nugget of gold and acting like its at all representative of the state of affairs? because the state of affairs is not good by any stretch of the imagination and the coverage should reflect that. is there something good going on somewhere in that mess? yes, id assume so, but the reason why its not being reported isnt because of the "liberal media" but because its just not an accurate way to portray things

[Sepiae]

For the record, my dad is anti-liberal media, not me. I do agree with your point, though.

[Junebug]

Originally posted by sleeper


well, dont you think theres a certain measure of dishonesty involved in digging through mountains of shit and picking out a nugget of gold and acting like its at all representative of the state of affairs? because the state of affairs is not good by any stretch of the imagination and the coverage should reflect that. is there something good going on somewhere in that mess? yes, id assume so, but the reason why its not being reported isnt because of the "liberal media" but because its just not an accurate way to portray things

I know this is anecdotal evidence I'm about to give, but it's about all we can get at this point. I just met with/listened to three soldiers (two were in iraq, one afghanistan) who had served tours of duty in the past year to two years, and all three of them agreed that the media only reported on and sensationalized the bad things, and ignored most of the good. they understood it's the nature of the beast (one of the soldiers admitted "if i heard every day about a new school being opened by the americans in Iraq I probably wouldn't care either"), but they all voiced discontent over the issue. So i wouldn't say talking about the good stuff isn't an accurate portrayal. the way the war is being reported now, according to the soldiers, is what is not accurate.

[sleeper]

Originally posted by Sepiae
For the record, my dad is anti-liberal media, not me. I do agree with your point, though.

whats this "liberal-media" you speak of? im unaware of such a thing

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally posted by sleeper


youre joking right? like youre knowingly playing on that stereotypically violent, pig headed jingoist that were all talking about, right? just checking

i agree about increasing the troops though, although not necessarily with americans

So you're saying you agree then

Also for once try getting through a thread without using the word "jingostic." It's fucking lazy, man.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally posted by sleeper


whats this "liberal-media" you speak of? im unaware of such a thing

That's because you're a Liberal. You never notice the slant if you agree with it