Cafta - terrible idea

[Trotskilicious]

Originally posted by pastry sharp


being from texas, it's easy to say that jobs are being exported that americans don't want anyway. in the midwest, jobs that would normally be handled by migrant workers are done by american workers. i think you might be wrongly assuming that the economy of texas applies to the entire country.

You're a douchebag.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally posted by The Omega Concern


such innovation is stifled anymore in America. period...and the big lobbyist who control just about all Senators and most congresspeople have run roughshod over the avenues that used to allow the innovations to occur.

disturbing trend. im gonna eat a Hostess Cupcake now.

Lets not mention the anemic state of our rail system as opposed to Europe thanks to the airlines.

[Mariner]

Originally posted by DeadSwan

i don't understand how 300 years of revolutionary and technological zeal could have come to such a sudden end.

because they were made possible largely by our sudden ability to seek out and consume several hundred million years' of stockpiled solar energy. this was likely a one-time-only binge that we may have or may soon seen the pinnacle of.

say you and 30 other people live in a house full of millions of donuts made easily accessible and consumable by the ingenuity and hard work of the 10 people who lived previously in said house. they knew how to find a variety of food sources and how to work hard, and this hard work led to the discovery of the house's donut supply. 28 or 29 of your current 30 housemates will be content to live on donuts, reproduce, and let their kids live on donuts too. anyone who raises the question of what to do when the donuts run out is scoffed at until the donuts are halfway gone, the house's population is exploding, no one remembers how to find other food sources anymore, and everybody is suddenly eyeing each other suspiciously and considering violent action to ensure they have enough donuts to eat.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally posted by Mariner


because they were made possible largely by our sudden ability to seek out and consume several hundred million years' of stockpiled solar energy. this was likely a one-time-only binge that we may have or may soon seen the pinnacle of.

say you and 30 other people live in a house full of millions of donuts made easily accessible and consumable by the ingenuity and hard work of the 10 people who lived previously in said house. they knew how to find a variety of food sources and how to work hard, and this hard work led to the discovery of the house's donut supply. 28 or 29 of your current 30 housemates will be content to live on donuts, reproduce, and let their kids live on donuts too. anyone who raises the question of what to do when the donuts run out is scoffed at until the donuts are halfway gone, the house's population is exploding, no one remembers how to find other food sources anymore, and everybody is suddenly eyeing each other suspiciously and considering violent action to ensure they have enough donuts to eat.

please tell me how to get to the donut house

[transluscent]

Originally posted by Mariner


because they were made possible largely by our sudden ability to seek out and consume several hundred million years' of stockpiled solar energy. this was likely a one-time-only binge that we may have or may soon seen the pinnacle of.

say you and 30 other people live in a house full of millions of donuts made easily accessible and consumable by the ingenuity and hard work of the 10 people who lived previously in said house. they knew how to find a variety of food sources and how to work hard, and this hard work led to the discovery of the house's donut supply. 28 or 29 of your current 30 housemates will be content to live on donuts, reproduce, and let their kids live on donuts too. anyone who raises the question of what to do when the donuts run out is scoffed at until the donuts are halfway gone, the house's population is exploding, no one remembers how to find other food sources anymore, and everybody is suddenly eyeing each other suspiciously and considering violent action to ensure they have enough donuts to eat.

thats rofltastic

[Mariner]

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
please tell me how to get to the donut house

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally posted by Mariner

awesome


i live right on D btw

[Lie]

Now I'm hungry.

[homechicago]

The pioneers we celebrate today would be thrilled at the extent to which flight has transformed the world. But they would also be shocked at the extent to which our culture has abandoned the values and attitudes that made their feats possible. Where Americans once embraced progress and admired the innovators who brought it, today we want the benefits of progress without its costs or risks, and we condemn the profit motive that drives innovation.

this article was interesting.





most (not all) big american companies want tax breaks, or to pay no taxes at all (welfare) to bury their companies in further debt all so the lucky few at the top never understand what it means to work one or two jobs to pay a mortgage.

research and development departments barely exist in corporations of america. it would seem america will get knocked on it's ass when india's innovators and china's thrive while we continue to discourage engineers and innovators. companies outsource to make profit. very few ceo's are inspired to do much beyond stacking up cash in the laziest way possible - cutting jobs, lying about profits, and keeping poor foreign worker's enslaved in an unwinnable situation. they don't funnel money into inventions, they keep money for themselves.

cafta - it would be a good idea if it worked for everyday americans and foreigners. it's lose lose for everyone but the guys at the top. people in central america cannot buy anything we make (i'm not sure what we even make anymore) because they barely exist on their pay. and for americans who also barely exist on their pay, they will soon be unemployed because the goods they made can now be purchased cheaper in central america.

i'll be interested to see congresswoman melissa bean in a few years when all the people in her district are unemployed and jobless, maybe homeless because of her yes vote for cafta.

[pastry sharp]

Originally posted by Trotskilicious


You're a douchebag.

youre full of intelligent input.

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by Trotskilicious


Lets not mention the anemic state of our rail system as opposed to Europe thanks to the airlines.

I would really like to hear your theory here.

[RopeyLopey]

Originally posted by Mariner


because they were made possible largely by our sudden ability to seek out and consume several hundred million years' of stockpiled solar energy. this was likely a one-time-only binge that we may have or may soon seen the pinnacle of.

say you and 30 other people live in a house full of millions of donuts made easily accessible and consumable by the ingenuity and hard work of the 10 people who lived previously in said house. they knew how to find a variety of food sources and how to work hard, and this hard work led to the discovery of the house's donut supply. 28 or 29 of your current 30 housemates will be content to live on donuts, reproduce, and let their kids live on donuts too. anyone who raises the question of what to do when the donuts run out is scoffed at until the donuts are halfway gone, the house's population is exploding, no one remembers how to find other food sources anymore, and everybody is suddenly eyeing each other suspiciously and considering violent action to ensure they have enough donuts to eat.

meh. nice comparison, but I guess it's not used in the right situation.

'no one remembers how to find other food sources anymore' - do you really think that's the case? if we are talking automobiles, you hardly haven't heard about hydrogen cells. Well, sure there's still a lot of things to improve, but it's still pretty far away from 'not remembering how to find other food sources'. And this is not valid only about cars.

and don't forget it's not only about finding new sources; it's about using your current sources efficiently as well - realizing you don't really have to eat two donuts to satisfy your hunger that one donut is enough. Have you ever heard about Amory Lovins and Rocky Mountain Institute, what they do?

[Trotskilicious]

Originally posted by jczeroman


I would really like to hear your theory here.

The airlines lose money almost all the time and they need the government to come bail them out. That indicates an extremely powerful lobby. I really think that rail is more profitable provided that you have high speed trains hooking up most of the country. I think America has always had a priority for airlines, which may not have been the best idea.

Of course you could argue that Americans have more love for automobile transport than Europeans do, which would lessen the desire for Americans to ride trains. But get real: Beemers, Alfa Romeros, Porches, Ferraris. Europeans love to drive, too.

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by Trotskilicious


The airlines lose money almost all the time and they need the government to come bail them out. That indicates an extremely powerful lobby. I really think that rail is more profitable provided that you have high speed trains hooking up most of the country. I think America has always had a priority for airlines, which may not have been the best idea.

Of course you could argue that Americans have more love for automobile transport than Europeans do, which would lessen the desire for Americans to ride trains. But get real: Beemers, Alfa Romeros, Porches, Ferraris. Europeans love to drive, too.

ok, I see what you are saying. I don't disagree in principle. I will ask this, do you realize that Amtrak has never earned a profit? It's not just the airlines that the government is screwing up... If they would open all of transport up in general, and allow some new ideas besides those officially sanctioned by the government to get a go, I think the country would be revolutionized for the better.

[Mariner]

Originally posted by RopeyLopey

meh. nice comparison, but I guess it's not used in the right situation.

'no one remembers how to find other food sources anymore' - do you really think that's the case?

all of our current forays into 'alternative' energy rely entirely on conventional fuels. to make, say, a wind turbine requires ore mining and transport, steelmaking, plastics/composite manufacture and transport, shaping, transport, and assembly of raw plastics and steel into wind turbine components, transport of components to their final destination, and assemblage and installation of said components there. all of these processes rely directly on fossil fuels to power the factories, run the transportation vehicles and assemblage equipment, serve as the raw materials for plastics, and get the workers to and from their homes, and support the workers' survival and lifestyle. every step in the supply chain for every product and piece of equipment required to do anything from make you a meal, to assemble a wind turbine, or to develop next-generation hydrogen technology relies directly on non-renewable energy. right now, we're mostly using the alternative energy sources we're developing to simply augment non-renewable energy sources. i wouldn't call any current wind-turbine farm 'renewable' energy. until we can remove nonrenewable energy sources from every step on every supply chain in our society, we're vulnerable to the full collapse that would likely be inevitable upon reaching the halfway-point of our supply of any non-renewable source (today, specifically, oil.) a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. right now, 99% of the links in "renewable" energy chains (let alone all the rest of our society's 'chains') are weak links.

and don't forget it's not only about finding new sources; it's about using your current sources efficiently as well - realizing you don't really have to eat two donuts to satisfy your hunger that one donut is enough. Have you ever heard about Amory Lovins and Rocky Mountain Institute, what they do?

i agree fully. abundance begets inneficiency. i'm not familiar with amory and the rmi, i'll look into it.

[pastry sharp]

Originally posted by Trotskilicious


Lets not mention the anemic state of our rail system as opposed to Europe thanks to the airlines.

that's kind of like blaming the auto industry for making the horse and buggy trade look less attractive.

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by pastry sharp


that's kind of like blaming the auto industry for making the horse and buggy trade look less attractive.

But think of all the good middle class jobs that were lost when there was no more demand for horse drivers!!!! Only the rich could afford cars and the factory jobs were terrible! Wouldn't it have been best if the car were never invented?

[Mariner]

Originally posted by pastry sharp


that's kind of like blaming the auto industry for making the horse and buggy trade look less attractive.

...except rail transportation is far more efficient. don't be surprised if 50 years from now you look back at automobiles as a temporary luxury.

[DeadSwan]

god i hate cars


except for old saabs, b/c they're so stylish

[pastry sharp]

Originally posted by Mariner



...except rail transportation is far more efficient. don't be surprised if 50 years from now you look back at automobiles as a temporary luxury.

rail transportation is definately more economical, and it definately creates less of a logistical problem from a global standpoint. but at an individual level the automobile creates a more direct, more comfortable mode of transportation. the automobile is economically viable for most people - and mass transit systems in most american cities are pathetic.

but this isn't the issue. i didn't compare the automobile to the railroad, i compared the automobile to the horse and buggy - for the purpose of exhibiting how less effective the rail is for transporting people than air travel.

[Mariner]

Originally posted by pastry sharp


how less effective the rail is for transporting people than air travel.

can you explain what exactly you mean by "effective", and how air meets those criteria better than rail?

[pastry sharp]

Originally posted by Mariner


can you explain what exactly you mean by "effective", and how air meets those criteria better than rail?

i tend to approach things as i would at work (i'm in logistics by the way)... i look at cost, time, saftey, and distance when doing my job. depending on the commodity, one of the factors may be of much greater import than another...

air travel is generally more direct than any type of land travel. air travel is generally safer than any type of land travel. air travel is generally less time consuming than any type of land travel. those three factors for most people outweigh the cost savings that land travel has to offer - when the commodity being transported is people.

[Mariner]

Originally posted by pastry sharp


i tend to approach things as i would at work (i'm in logistics by the way)... i look at cost, time, saftey, and distance when doing my job. depending on the commodity, one of the factors may be of much greater import than another...

air travel is generally more direct than any type of land travel. air travel is generally safer than any type of land travel. air travel is generally less time consuming than any type of land travel. those three factors for most people outweigh the cost savings that land travel has to offer - when the commodity being transported is people.

thanks, and i agree, if only for the time being. barring major revolutions in the passenger flight industry (which do not seem likely under current first-world regulatory structures), i think the cost factor is destined to start creeping up on other factors in the future. but maybe i'm only thinking like that because i see direct evidence of similar things happening among the modes of the freight transportation industry.

[wHATcOLOR]

Originally posted by Mariner


thanks, and i agree, if only for the time being. barring major revolutions in the passenger flight industry (which do not seem likely under current first-world regulatory structures), i think the cost factor is destined to start creeping up on other factors in the future. but maybe i'm only thinking like that because i see direct evidence of similar things happening among the modes of the freight transportation industry.

he means boats, guys!

[Mariner]

Originally posted by Jerome


he means boats, guys!

actually i was talking more about rail and boats

[pastry sharp]

Originally posted by Mariner


thanks, and i agree, if only for the time being. barring major revolutions in the passenger flight industry (which do not seem likely under current first-world regulatory structures), i think the cost factor is destined to start creeping up on other factors in the future. but maybe i'm only thinking like that because i see direct evidence of similar things happening among the modes of the freight transportation industry.

you've got a decent point, but i would argue that the price of air travel would need to increase exponentially in order to make land travel more appealling to the average joe, especially in this country.

[wHATcOLOR]

Originally posted by Mariner


actually i was talking more about rail and boats

well this is a fine example of why i never feel qualified to post in this forum!

[Mariner]

Originally posted by Jerome



well this is a fine example of why i never feel qualified to post in this forum!

maybe we will put up some pictures of naked guys with big wangs to make you more comfortable

[Trotskilicious]

Originally posted by pastry sharp
the price of air travel would need to increase exponentially.

And the only reason it doesn't is because the government lends a helping hand to bail out the airlines.

I think air travel is a colossal pain in the ass and furthermore, it scares the hell out of me.

[homechicago]

Originally posted by Trotskilicious


And the only reason it doesn't is because the government lends a helping hand to bail out the airlines.

the way our airlines run scares me.

how is it that a ticket from chicago to l.a. in the 80's could be around 500 dollars, and fifteen to twenty years later, the prices have been as low as 200, when fuel prices have only risen? and what about personnel pay raises? america's airlines are being run like dot.com's that had no business plan. where did these low rates start? doesn't make any economic sense. if airlines charged sustainable rates, they wouldn't all be in bankruptcy or close to it.