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Old 03-25-2016, 10:55 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by he/she/it View Post
The reliable tone-building components in Billy's setups are EQ, compression, and boost / overdrive into an amp's own clean or high-gain sound.



I think that Billy's basic MCIS sound is this:

For cleans:

EQ -> maybe added clean boost pedal -> mild compression and additional boost from 3630 compressor -> clean channel JMP-1 -> (effects loop) sometimes with a quiet delay effect -> Strategy 500.

Billy's clean tones throughout SP don't come without using an EQ to finely raise or lower particular aspects of the whole sound. Amp EQ settings are usually pretty blunt, and I would use an amp's EQ to get generally as close to a decent sound as they can, and then really carve a good tone out using an EQ pedal or rack unit, starting with the high frequencies, and working towards the low end, moving each next slider to its max and min range, to hear what aspect that slider is contributing to the sound, and then finding its optimal placement.

There also could be an additional clean boost pedal after the EQ and before the Alesis 3630.



For distortion:

EQ -> MXR Distortion II -> mild compression and boost from Alesis 3630 compressor -> JMP-1 -> Strategy 500

The compression could also come before the DII, not sure.

I'm guessing on the MXR Distortion II, but that pedal has a distinct sound to it, and that's what it sounds to me is being used on MCIS, being run into high-gain from the JMP-1's distortion channels - and billy did use one on Siamese Dream for at least leads. I think the MXR Distortion II might almost be to MCIS what the Big Muff is to Siamese Dream.



Bullet With Butterfly Wings:
https://youtu.be/8-r-V0uK4u0
The intro riff sounds distinctly like an MXR Distortion II to me, for a guess I'd say possibly going EQ -> MXR Distortion II -> Alesis 3630 -> clean 2 channel of the JMP-1



MCIS demo Millieu:
https://youtu.be/Kyk8c0ybHgc

This sound is 2nd pickup selector placement on a Blue/Silver/Red Lace Sensor strat, going into EQ, into Alesis 3630 for boost and mild compression, into the second of the clean channels on the JMP-1. Having an EQ in the effects chain is essential to get this sound, rather than something that is murky, muffled, and dull by comparison.


Mild compression is important for Billy's plucky clean guitar sounds. Having no compression at all is often just unpleasant, making the apex of guitar notes thin, and makes string bends sort of whiny-sounding during high-gain leads. Though adding too much compression flattens the signal too much and takes away all the pristine chime-iness.

Some pedals, like the BOSS CS-3 squash the sound too much to get that kind of well-defined tone - though Billy has used a CS-3 compressor, it generally is an overly-squashy, loud noise compressor.

It sounds to me like the BOSS CS-3 is being used on the lead guitar in this MCIS night-time version demo from the 2012 MCIS reissue:
https://youtu.be/hp6NIjg7Kjg

I would not recommend a BOSS CS-3 for general compression needs, due to its excessive tone-squashing, and high noise level.
How much of this do you think may have been done post-production?

 
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:03 PM   #302
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this is great

Eddie might have a few things to say about that.


 
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:26 PM   #303
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can you post a link to that, poots?

 
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:27 PM   #304
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How much of this do you think may have been done post-production?
It's been said, I think by Billy, that the eventide harmonizer was used extensively on the album, though I don't know if it would have been applied while playing, or applied afterwards. A lot of what the eventide harmonizer sounds are used for is not typical obvious harmonizing, but to create different styles of background noise and artifacts, which I guess is sort of meant to psyche the listener into perceiving that there is greater depth and complexity to the sound. If the harmonizer parts were isolated, they might sound pretty garish or garbled on their own, and with little, and sometimes no melody heard in them.

The watery effect during this BWBW interlude section is probably the eventide harmonizer:
https://youtu.be/dlzilCmcyxY?t=95

The deliberate excessive grainy hissiness in the chorus could also possibly be the eventide harmonizer (though the bridge section noise is caused by a Fender Blender distortion pedal):
https://youtu.be/dlzilCmcyxY?t=125

There's also sometimes layering of different ways of playing a riff, just so that the guitar tone isn't one consistent thing that's easily definable. An example is the very quiet cleanish (I think) auto-wah performance of the chorus riff playing out of only the left speaker during the choruses of BWBW,:
https://youtu.be/dlzilCmcyxY?t=51

Also, the heavy BWBW parts are being played as power chords in some takes, and as root chords in others, and then layered together, with the power chord takes made louder than the root chord takes.

There's still EQ'ing done in the post-recording, stuff like filtering out some of the bassiness in guitar takes that overlaps with the bass guitar frequencies, and EQ carving, and anything else that just sounds good to do when playing around with sounds during playback.


Eventide has plugins released now that can do all the same stuff that the expensive rack used by the Pumpkins did on MCIS.

But I think most of the production, guitar-wise, is in the live performance, the MXR DII + Alesis 3630 + JMP-1 + Strategy 500, the guitar layers, the eventide harmonizer, then additional EQ in mixing, and then standard mastering. There are for sure other pedals being used, and many other tricks, but I think that the recognizable bulk of the sounds heard on the album can be produced from those things.

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Old 03-25-2016, 11:40 PM   #305
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i'm pretty sure the harmonizer was used on his vocals, to give it that doubled chorused sound

almost all SD guitars are very dry in the mix. almost nothing but eq and distortion. not even delays.
i'd be surprised to hear they used harmonizers on guitars. the mix was cluttered enough as it is

 
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:47 PM   #306
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The harmonizer is definitely used on Billy's vocals, but I'm certain it is also being used on guitar. There's a watery effect sort of like the one I linked to in BWBW that's a preset with the E. Harmonizer vst plugin that I have, and there are lots of other preset artifact noises that are relatable to stuff that I hear going on in MCIS.

 
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Old 03-26-2016, 12:07 AM   #307
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i thought we were talking about SD.
MCIS sounds like shit.

 
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Old 03-26-2016, 12:21 AM   #308
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Well, I was talking about MCIS.

The E Harmonizer was used on Soma live, for all the funky background weird noises:
https://youtu.be/qtw88GeFhwM?t=121

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Old 03-26-2016, 12:25 AM   #309
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It's also being used here on Porcelina, for those chimey-watery effects:
https://youtu.be/d3szzhg38m4?t=62

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 11:17 AM   #310
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The EQ makes a lot of sense

One of the more astounding things about golden age SP is that no matter how dense/loud/busy the mix sounds for the first minute and a half or so, somehow they were able to cram a new, louder guitar sound into there at appropriate moments

Like when Stand Inside Your Love opens up on "all that I have dreamed"

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 04:34 PM   #311
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The EQ makes a lot of sense

One of the more astounding things about golden age SP is that no matter how dense/loud/busy the mix sounds for the first minute and a half or so, somehow they were able to cram a new, louder guitar sound into there at appropriate moments

Like when Stand Inside Your Love opens up on "all that I have dreamed"
To get that clarity of takes in a mix dense with parts, what's done is called "EQ carving", to make parts stand out by dedicating particular frequencies to them. There are youtube and written tutorials for it, like this one. But one basic implementation of it, to create a sense of difference between left and right stereo channels, is to increase, lower, or do both, to certain frequencies on one stereo side, say of rhythm guitar, and then do the opposite on the other stereo side. Here's an image comparing two stereo sides featuring this type of EQ carving:



The result is that each stereo audio channel has its own niche in the mix, and things actually sound more stereo, and unique from either channel, and less homogenized.

EQ carving can also be used in a comb filtering style, and basically any EQ shape a person can think of. A Smashing Pumpkins section that probably has very heavy EQ carving is the layered lead guitars in the intro of Thru the Eyes of Ruby.



Another, I think interesting, thing regarding Pumpkins sound, is the partly-cocked wah sound, which is talked about regarding Billy's Reverend signature guitar in this video:
https://youtu.be/lzl60Kyoy0Q?t=121

And which is also mentioned on this website, in regards to the pickups used in Billy's Reverend sig guitar:
http://www.railhammer.com/Billy_Corgan_Bridge.html

"The unique EQ features a mild midrange bump, imparting a slight "cocked wah pedal" effect (aka "the Sabbath note" per Billy), which gives the tone extra punch and weight even with the heaviest distortion or fuzz."

I think that's the slightly-nasally sound that's being heard in the heavy guitars that kick in here:
https://youtu.be/d3szzhg38m4?t=100

And also in this Here is No Why solo:
https://youtu.be/2PhAJcXpaRU?t=134

And which is also being used throughout that concert, and many from the MCIS tour. It is also often used for live performance lead solos throughout the pumpkins' career.



Listening to some live Siamese Dream era performances, it sounds to me like the Eventide Harmonizer H3000, which is the model seen in Pumpkins' racks around that time, is used pretty widely for guitar parts. There's a plugin from Eventide of that same model that the Pumpkins used mid-90's, which comes with a ton of presets for guitar, and I used it subtly on select guitar takes in this track: https://youtu.be/iwvhDtHu2TE

The Harmonizer isn't just for basic harmonies, and that's a very small part of what the device actually is designed for. It's kind of like an abstract noise generator, which makes interpolations based on the audio that's put into it, and creates a side layer that can sound like all kinds of textures, blips, whooshes, distortions, meshes, harmonies... and that generated layer is mixed into the raw guitar audio to make it more multi-faceted, textured, etc.

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Old 03-27-2016, 06:08 PM   #312
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Those "nasal sounds" for leads was made with a phaser with the rate turned down. I don't want to be a jerk but what are your sources on any/all of this?

Gear used in the studio =/= gear used live. Do you think there was a guy pushing a button on a rack-mounted H3000 and then shutting it off? Or switching the pre-sets for the foot pedal in between each song? I don't.

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 06:14 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by he/she/it View Post
Well, I was talking about MCIS.

The E Harmonizer was used on Soma live, for all the funky background weird noises:
https://youtu.be/qtw88GeFhwM?t=121
That's phase and reverse delay

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 06:16 PM   #314
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I just don't think you should confuse studio application with live work

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 07:47 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slunken View Post
Those "nasal sounds" for leads was made with a phaser with the rate turned down. I don't want to be a jerk but what are your sources on any/all of this?
A phaser with its rate turned down still creates a pulsing movement (like in Cherub Rock's album solo), unless it's like a Bad Stone, which has a momentary setting (the MXR 100 Billy describes as using for SD solos doesn't have that ability). When Billy described using a phaser with its rate knob turned all the way down for leads, he said it was to create some movement. A slow-rate phaser does not sound like what I linked to, but a partly-cocked wah does.

My source, well, I have 18 years as a guitarist, and many years of sound production experience, and also mostly-shamelessly have nearly the same guitar and amp setups as Bill's SD and MCIS eras. I've spent years learning recording and live tone techniques that accomplish my favourite sounds of the Pumpkins, so I use that as a reference, along with the information I've learned from other musicians and sound engineers over the years.


Quote:
Gear used in the studio =/= gear used live. Do you think there was a guy pushing a button on a rack-mounted H3000 and then shutting it off? Or switching the pre-sets for the foot pedal in between each song? I don't.
The H3000, and typically all rack-mounted guitar equipment, takes MIDI commands - which means it is controllable using a foot controller, just like switching channels and presets for an amp, or turning on and off particular pedals is. A foot controller can not only engage or disengage the H3000, but also switch presents on it. A single switch on a foot controller will be calibrated to particular call commands that relate to all used equipment in a rack, and so one press can bring up any new configuration from all equipment, all at once.

That said, I don't know how Billy had his set up going for this performance, but Billy motions to off-stage crew here, right before the effect starts:
https://youtu.be/qtw88GeFhwM?t=116

So, I would say that in this instance that someone did indeed engage an effect for Billy - and that's entirely not uncommon in live performances for many artists. But an H3000 shouldn't need off-stage enabling or controlling, unless Billy wanted more effects on-hand than his foot controller had room for at once, or some other particularity.


Also, Billy looks to position his foot here, and perhaps presses the wrong thing, because a pretty nasty off-pitch sub-octave harmonizer effect plays once he strums the chord. And he smiles to himself, possibly in embarrassment because it was an accident, and then plays the following chord in stronger determination, like he's correcting the sound to himself. It then looks like he double-checks what foot switch he's pressing, and after he does so, his guitar tone changes from distortion to a cleanish effect:
https://youtu.be/qtw88GeFhwM?t=146


Billy gives a cold stare off-stage after the excessive delay volume here, and then a few seconds later motions to his mic or pedal setup, while having eye-contact off-stage - so crew definitely was making changes for him mid-song (which, as I said, is not uncommon):
https://youtu.be/qtw88GeFhwM?t=216


Billy, James, guitarists in general, do switch between presets mid-song, and you can see Billy pressing a footswitch button right here:
https://youtu.be/qtw88GeFhwM?t=198



Quote:
Originally Posted by slunken View Post
That's phase and reverse delay
There is a delay effect (which could also come from the H3000), but not phaser. Notice the effect cascades downwards and in step-fashion with each strum, and not in oscillating or smooth manner (though there are some step-oscillation phasers that could do this). Also note that the signal caused by Billy's strumming is what triggers the effect's downward cascading, whereas a phaser would phase-shift a sound depending on where the phase-effect already was in its oscillation at the time a player strums their guitar.

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Old 03-27-2016, 08:25 PM   #316
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My personal guess is that the nasal solo heard in the Here is No Why video that I linked to is from using a stationary setting of the auto wah feature from the ADA MP-2 preamp, which Billy has in his studio and live MCIS rig.

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 09:02 PM   #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by he/she/it View Post
A phaser with its rate turned down still creates a pulsing movement (like in Cherub Rock's album solo), unless it's like a Bad Stone, which has a momentary setting (the MXR 100 Billy describes as using for SD solos doesn't have that ability). When Billy described using a phaser with its rate knob turned all the way down for leads, he said it was to create some movement. A slow-rate phaser does not sound like what I linked to, but a partly-cocked wah does.

My source, well, I have 18 years as a guitarist, and many years of sound production experience, and also mostly-shamelessly have nearly the same guitar and amp setups as Bill's SD and MCIS eras. I've spent years learning recording and live tone techniques that accomplish my favourite sounds of the Pumpkins, so I use that as a reference, along with the information I've learned from other musicians and sound engineers over the years.



The H3000, and typically all rack-mounted guitar equipment, takes MIDI commands - which means it is controllable using a foot controller, just like switching channels and presets for an amp, or turning on and off particular pedals is. A foot controller can not only engage or disengage the H3000, but also switch presents on it. A single switch on a foot controller will be calibrated to particular call commands that relate to all used equipment in a rack, and so one press can bring up any new configuration from all equipment, all at once.

That said, I don't know how Billy had his set up going for this performance, but Billy motions to off-stage crew here, right before the effect starts:
https://youtu.be/qtw88GeFhwM?t=116

So, I would say that in this instance that someone did indeed engage an effect for Billy - and that's entirely not uncommon in live performances for many artists. But an H3000 shouldn't need off-stage enabling or controlling, unless Billy wanted more effects on-hand than his foot controller had room for at once, or some other particularity.


Also, Billy looks to position his foot here, and perhaps presses the wrong thing, because a pretty nasty off-pitch sub-octave harmonizer effect plays once he strums the chord. And he smiles to himself, possibly in embarrassment because it was an accident, and then plays the following chord in stronger determination, like he's correcting the sound to himself. It then looks like he double-checks what foot switch he's pressing, and after he does so, his guitar tone changes from distortion to a cleanish effect:
https://youtu.be/qtw88GeFhwM?t=146


Billy gives a cold stare off-stage after the excessive delay volume here, and then a few seconds later motions to his mic or pedal setup, while having eye-contact off-stage - so crew definitely was making changes for him mid-song (which, as I said, is not uncommon):
https://youtu.be/qtw88GeFhwM?t=216


Billy, James, guitarists in general, do switch between presets mid-song, and you can see Billy pressing a footswitch button right here:
https://youtu.be/qtw88GeFhwM?t=198





There is a delay effect (which could also come from the H3000), but not phaser. Notice the effect cascades downwards and in step-fashion with each strum, and not in oscillating or smooth manner (though there are some step-oscillation phasers that could do this). Also note that the signal caused by Billy's strumming is what triggers the effect's downward cascading, whereas a phaser would phase-shift a sound depending on where the phase-effect already was in its oscillation at the time a player strums their guitar.


Makes sense. I can dig it. Thanks for the response.

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 09:09 PM   #318
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I guess my doubts arose because you mention only studio/rack gear and nothing from a live pedalboard

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 10:24 PM   #319
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No problem. Figuring out these sounds has been an interest of mine, and this seems like the place to share what I've learned. I'm still figuring more things out about these sounds, though.


I took another look at this instance:
Quote:
Billy gives a cold stare off-stage after the excessive delay volume here, and then a few seconds later motions to his mic or pedal setup, while having eye-contact off-stage - so crew definitely was making changes for him mid-song (which, as I said, is not uncommon):
https://youtu.be/qtw88GeFhwM?t=216
And that one is actually Billy breaking a string, and motioning to his guitar's headstock to off-stage crew. Then, after the solo and during the pause before Soma's gentle outro, a crew person hands him another guitar, which he finishes the song with.

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 10:55 PM   #320
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billy's vocal production thing was actually much heavier on the chorusing that i had previously realized. there was recently some guitar-hero-rock-band thing where you got the isolated vocal of some SD song. probably cherub rock.

the chorusing is a lot deeper than what you can hear in the mix. i remember audio engineers saying that tricks like that work particularly well if the singer is slightly out of tune - and well, billy does have a lot of tuning issues. so nice call, butch vig. billy's voice on SD was produced just perfectly

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 10:57 PM   #321
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his voice sounds super processed on SD to me, always has. no voice naturally has those sorts of harmonic, buzzy qualities. but it works very very well

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 11:01 PM   #322
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it always sounded airy and boyish to me.
it obviously sounds very processed, but "airy" and "boyish" are the quintessentially perfect qualities for pumpkins vocals

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 11:37 PM   #323
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To me, that voice pitch effect is one of the iconic things about SD, and gives it a dreamy, out of time sort of hue.

I think that a similar version is being done on BWBW: https://youtu.be/ASKk2bxqayI?t=125

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 11:39 PM   #324
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it's weird how he went from such severe augmentation of his vocals to basically leaving them dry in the final mix on SP 2 stuff.

 
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Old 03-27-2016, 11:59 PM   #325
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it's a shift many vocalists go through , i find.

many singers mask and disguise their voices early on, and go more and more to the front, dry end of the mix as they age. probably has to do with a 'this is me, i accept myself now' thing.

 
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Old 04-01-2016, 07:02 PM   #326
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I've been playing with the capo wayyy up on the fret board so I can play open chords and get the high pitched ringing sound

But I keep going back and forth between wanting a pretty jangly sound or a darker spooky more dissonant sound

Then at the same time I want some funk in there and it's getting difficult to make that work smoothly

It's like idk if I want to be The Smiths, The Cure, and Happy Monday's
Or more no wave
Like The Pop Group, The Contortions, GoF and Teenage Jesus

 
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:34 AM   #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphenor View Post
I've been playing with the capo wayyy up on the fret board so I can play open chords and get the high pitched ringing sound

But I keep going back and forth between wanting a pretty jangly sound or a darker spooky more dissonant sound
you could try downtuning + capo. downtuning could allow you to use thicker strings, thus darker sound.

 
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Old 04-02-2016, 04:30 AM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphenor View Post
I've been playing with the capo wayyy up on the fret board so I can play open chords and get the high pitched ringing sound

But I keep going back and forth between wanting a pretty jangly sound or a darker spooky more dissonant sound

Then at the same time I want some funk in there and it's getting difficult to make that work smoothly

It's like idk if I want to be The Smiths, The Cure, and Happy Monday's
Or more no wave
Like The Pop Group, The Contortions, GoF and Teenage Jesus
You should be the darker spooky jangly funky one and only Silent Group. Sounds are played out

 
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Old 04-04-2016, 12:43 AM   #329
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Alesis 3630 vs 3632 compressor, in a guitar rack.

I use these as compressor, boost, and dirt effects in my guitar rack, and I really like them in these roles. I've read it said that the 3632 delivers the 3630 sound, but with better quality components, and less noise, but I find there to be tonal differences between these devices, despite them also having similarities in their characteristics.


Out of all the the many signal-boosting devices that I have (pedals and rack devices), I find that these two Alesis compressors (and without using any of their compression features) are stand-out in giving played sounds distinct crisply-defined edges, when their output boosting feature is used. And this is a quality that I especially like.

If I play a note using any of my other boost pedals, I would describe the resulting sound as still having a relatively soft-sounding shape and experience, whereas the quality from either the 3630 or 3632 imbues played sounds with a quality that I would describe as firm, strong, solid, which increases as the output gain is increased. And between the two compressor devices, I think that the 3630 does this more greatly than does the 3632.

One big downside to the 3630, though, is its limited gain level headroom, which, when exceeded, completely garbles whatever sound is passing through the device. And to avoid this, either output levels on pedals ahead of the 3630, or the output gain on the 3630 will have to be turned down sufficiently to keep the overall signal level beneath the headroom threshold of the 3630's gain capacity. As I mentioned, I like the crisp quality given from cranking the output on the 3630, so I have to adjust the volumes of other things in my signal chain in order to still be able to push the output on the 3630 at the end of it all, while preserving the sound.

I also perceive the 3630 as imparting a darker quality and colouration upon output tone than the 3632, which is pretty transparent-sounding, meaning that it doesn't really add colouration to sound that is put into it. And this makes its output tone seems a little brighter, and perhaps a bit thinner, to me, when contrast with the 3630's output tone. The Smashing Pumpkins' album Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness featured a base amp setup of an Alesis 3630 going into a Marshall JMP-1 preamp, which then went into a Strategy 500 power amp (and this is where my same base amp setup is inspired from). And being familiar with the 3630's sound colouration, I recognize it as a key piece of that album's darkish tone.

Both the 3630 and 3632 have interesting and very usable distortion characteristics, when their output gain is cranked enough on an already boosted signal, and both are again pretty distinct from the other signal boosting devices that I have, and both also convey their crispnessness. The 3630's distortion sounds to me like a bunch of very short but firm bristling hairs of light, whereas the 3632's is more granular and evenly-spread throughout the sound.


Both devices are great general compression, boost, and dirt effects for a guitar setup, though I find the 3630 to impart a darker and note-thickening tone quality, and to have a slightly-different dirt sound. For now, the 3630 is in my amp rack, though I'm sure I'll be swapping between them, now and again.

 
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Old 04-05-2016, 10:52 AM   #330
Elphenor
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I wish I had the money to mess around with a bunch of gear

 
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