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Old 08-04-2010, 05:18 PM   #1
Eulogy
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Default Judge to a bunch of assholes on California: Suck it.

I'm assuming we're still at the point where a Conservative SCOTUS justice needs to die though, right? Is there really no cause for celebration at all aside from the fact that gays can marry again for the time being?

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:18 PM   #2
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The defense did such a fucking shitty job though. Is there really no standard for "grounds for appeal?"

where's corganist when you need him

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:21 PM   #3
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in b4 nimrod activist judge comment

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:36 PM   #4
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one step closer to the Supreme Court

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:37 PM   #5
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i dunno. i'm gonna read the whole decision at some point... but it certainly doesn't seem "activist."

so all the gays need to marry there real quick before the SCOTUS reverses it.

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:38 PM   #6
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the whole idea that a judgment can never be good if it goes against the will of a majority is so mindblowingly stupid. lkdjshvqpoihjreg;r

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:40 PM   #7
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suck it monte

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:49 PM   #8
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Its Adam and eve not Adam and Steve. get it right

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 06:34 PM   #9
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suck it monte
came here to say this

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 06:55 PM   #10
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suck it monte
seriously all Mormons should burn

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:06 PM   #11
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There are intelligent Mormons out there. Glenn beck is mormon for example

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:21 PM   #12
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actually it's a terrible, terrible example

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:31 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
The defense did such a fucking shitty job though. Is there really no standard for "grounds for appeal?"

where's corganist when you need him
I haven't read the ruling yet, so I'm not sure I understand your question. Is that something the defense argued? On first blush that statement seems accurate to some extent, but not totally. There are some rules for what you can file an appeal on without it being considered frivolous, but they're not necessarily rigid.

But it doesn't surprise me if the defense did shitty job. In a lot of the cases I've read along these lines there seems to be a theme of the anti-gay-marriage side of things making non-nonsensical, non-legal arguments that all but give the judges free reign to rule however they want.

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:12 PM   #14
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What's non-nonsensical, non-legal about arguing the process of the California Initiatives being subverted by a single judge when the legal hurdles any initiative has to jump through (including Constitutional ones) just to get on the ballot alone should preclude any single judge overturning a vote within that state. Period.

anyway...


Same thing happened in 1994 with prop. 187. Look at how well that's turned out? And in case you don't know, the citizens of California voted to prevent Illegal Immigrants from using (and really, abusing) the benefit programs in the state of California. Federal Judge overturned the decision and here we are today, an absolute fucking wreck of a state so friggen broke (5 million non-taxpaying illegal people in the state sucking billions off the coffers will do that) we're about to legalize gambling and pot to pay off the debt. And now children are gonna equate Tom and Bruce in the same light as your grandparents what with the "progressive"curriculum in the schools such as it is, especially in this state. lol. Good luck with it man.

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:22 PM   #15
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It's too bad this is such a big deal. Europe is laughing at us.

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:29 PM   #16
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California made a good move economically with this.

The amount of divorces will go up tremendously now!

More funds for lawyers, judges, courtrooms, etc..

Marriage is a money maker for the states... makes perfect sense that you allow as many as possible to get married.

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:37 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by The Omega Concern View Post
What's non-nonsensical, non-legal about arguing the process of the California Initiatives being subverted by a single judge when the legal hurdles any initiative has to jump through (including Constitutional ones) just to get on the ballot alone should preclude any single judge overturning a vote within that state. Period.

anyway...


Same thing happened in 1994 with prop. 187. Look at how well that's turned out? And in case you don't know, the citizens of California voted to prevent Illegal Immigrants from using (and really, abusing) the benefit programs in the state of California. Federal Judge overturned the decision and here we are today, an absolute fucking wreck of a state so friggen broke (5 million non-taxpaying illegal people in the state sucking billions off the coffers will do that) we're about to legalize gambling and pot to pay off the debt. And now children are gonna equate Tom and Bruce in the same light as your grandparents what with the "progressive"curriculum in the schools such as it is, especially in this state. lol. Good luck with it man.
came here to say this

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:47 PM   #18
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monte is in the fetal position right now. tweets soon to follow.

 
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:34 PM   #19
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Awesome. Good for the faggots.

 
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:32 AM   #20
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article cut n paste below. you've been warned.


It's In: An Analysis of the Proposition 8 Ruling - Towleroad | #gay #news

It's In: An Analysis of the Proposition 8 Ruling

ARI EZRA WALDMAN

Ari is a 2002 graduate of Harvard College and a 2005 graduate of Harvard Law School. After practicing in New York for five years and clerking at a federal appellate court in Washington, D.C., Ari is now on the faculty at California Western School of Law in San Diego, California. His area of expertise are criminal law, criminal procedure, LGBT law and law and economics.

Proposition 8 is a violation of due process and equal protection. Judge Vaughn Walker has made that abundantly clear.

But what is the immediate result of this ruling? Judge Walker concluded his Order by stating that "California is able to issues marriage licenses to same-sex couples, as it has already issued 18,000 marriage licenses to same-sex couples and has not suffered any demonstrated harm as a result." And, I just checked. My sister's heterosexual marriage has not been destroyed either.

That said, it is highly unlikely that any same-sex marriages will be conducted tomorrow. As posted here earlier, Proposition 8 supporters have already filed a pre-emptive motion to stay Judge Walker's order pending their appeal to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

This should not dampen our elation. This decision is momentous and a giant step forward toward legal recognition of our equal rights.

THERE WILL BE UPDATES TO THIS POST...REFRESH THIS POST FOR FURTHER ANALYSIS AS I CONTINUE TO GO THROUGH THE RULING...

UPDATE: The Devil is in the Details

Judge Walker's decision runs 138 pages. It is well-reasoned, exhaustively cited and drafted with one eye on its Main Street ramifications and another eye on the judges of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. In other words, this Order establishes a comprehensive factual record for review. And that, as any appellate lawyer knows, is going to be the source of our salvation or the harbinger of our defeat.

When the decision of a trial judge like Judge Walker goes up on appeal, his legal conclusions are reviewed by the appellate court de novo, or "from the beginning." That means that Judge Walker can conclude that Prop 8 violated the Equal Protection clause and the Due Process clause for this or that reason, but appellate judges are not bound by his conclusions. However, Judge Walker's factual findings -- such as the effect of same-sex marriage in Massachusetts or statistics on thriving children of same-sex couples -- must be accepted by the appellate court unless they are "clearly erroneous." A clearly erroneous finding of fact is looking up at the sky, seeing it is blue and having a weatherman tell you it's blue, but concluding that the sky is, indeed, red. We do this because it was Judge Walker who heard the evidence and evaluated the trustworthiness of the witnesses with his own two eyes.

Judge Walker's factual findings are breathtaking, if only for their sheer depth. From page 54 to 109, Judge Walker lays out his findings, eviscerates the testimony of anti-marriage equality experts and emphasizes the long list of statements where Prop 8 opponents conceded their factual case. In my years as an appellate litigator, I have never seen a factual record as detailed and well-documented as this. My compliments to Judge Walker and his clerks.

Let me highlight a few striking points here:

1. This case is about civil marriage. Religious belief has no place here.

Right off the bat, Judge Walker found that "[m]arriage in the United States has always been a civil matter" (p. 60, para. 19). The pen is indeed mightier than the sword. We watched with dismay, anger and frustration as Prop 8 supporters screamed that marriage equality laws would forces churches and synagogues to consecrate relationships contrary to their liturgy. In one line, Judge Walker does away with this nonsense. What we are dealing with here, he states, is civil marriage. After all, it is the "[c]ivil authorities [who] may permit religious leaders to solemnize marriages but not to determine who may enter to leave a civil marriage." (p. 60, para 19). The supremacy of civil marriage takes this conversation out of the church and onto the town square.

2. Marriage is a state of commitment, not a construct in which to have children.

Just as important is Judge Walker's findings about the nature of marriage. "Marriage is the state recognition and approval of a couple's choice to live with each other, to remain committed to one another and to form a household based on their own feelings about one another and to join in an economic partnership and support one another and any dependents" (p. 67, para. 34). Absent from this definition, based on extensive citations to evidence offered at trial, is marriage based on procreation or gender-specific roles. A marriage is a partnership based on deeply held emotional love and, as an institution, channels benefits to the married couple, their dependents and society at large. What's more, each of those benefits -- facilitating order, creating a realm of intimacy, creating stable households, providing children with support structures, assigning caregivers, facilitating property ownership and incentivizing healthy behaviors -- exists irrespective of the gender and sexual orientation of the married couple (pp 67-71).

3. Same-sex couples are just like opposite-sex couples.

The entree to these appetizers came later. Judge Walker found that "[s]ame-sex couples are identical to opposite-sex couples in the characteristics relevant to the ability to form successful marital unions. Like opposite-sex couples, same-sex couples have happy, satisfying relationships and form deep emotional bonds and strong commitments to their partners. Standardized measures of relationship satisfaction, relationship adjustment and love to do not differ depending on whether a couple is same-sex or opposite-sex" (p. 77, para. 48).

And on the seventh day, he rested.

Seriously, though, this profound description of equality is at the heart of the marriage equality movement. Judge Walker cites Prop 8 supporters' admissions at trial that gay partnerships are loving and commitment and that the capacity to commit and love "does not depend on the individual's sexual orientation" (p. 77, para. 48(d)). We are all the same and we all deserve to be treated as such.

4. Domestic partnerships insufficiently recognize those relationships.

Since marriage is not merely an economic union, or a procreative one, for that matter, domestic partnerships that assign certain economic benefits of marriage to nonmarried cohabitants is a separate, unequal and insufficient substitute. "Domestic partnerships lack the social meaning associated with marriage, and marriage is widely regarded as the definitive expression of love and commitment in the United States" (p. 80, para. 52).

Judge Walker recognizes that we do not want to marry the loves of our lives for the joint tax return or the prospect of doubling our wardrobes. That might be part of it, but it's not the whole story. Citing expert testimony about the cultural importance tied to marriage, Judge Walker finds that marriage is greater than the sum of the economic rights associated with it. And, since same-sex couples are no different in their love and commitment than opposite-sex couples, there seems to be no reason to exclude them from this institution.

In the end, it is hard to accept these facts and not conclude as Judge Walker did. Nothing here is clearly erroneous and any appellate court will be hard-pressed to upset any of these factual findings.

UPDATE: The Law Likes Equality

The United States Constitution has an annoying habit of defaulting to equality. There are times when unequal treatment is legitimate; we don't allow 14-year-olds to vote, for example. But, for the most part, the Fourteenth Amendment sets the foundation for treating each other the same, regardless of race, religion or gender. Now, with all cautious optimism aside, Judge Walker's decision allows us to add sexual orientation to that list.

Judge Walker's legal conclusions are simple. Proposition 8 violates the Equal Protection clause and the Due Process clause because in denying a homosexual's right to marry a person of the same sex as he or she sees fit, Prop 8 classifies and discriminates against a particular class of people for no legitimate reason. It's a little more complicated than that, so let's go through it step by step.

Due Process. As previewed earlier, Judge Walker was faced with the notion that the freedom to marry has previously been considered a fundamental right and abridgments of fundamental rights must pass strict scrutiny to pass constitutional muster. But, the issue is not whether the right to marry is fundamental -- no one disputes that (p. 110); rather, the question is whether same-sex couples are seeking to exercise that right to marry or are they trying to establish a new right. Prop 8 proponents argued that the right to marry someone of your same sex is a new right and, thus, not fundamental. Judge Walker disagreed. The only factor distinguishing same-sex and opposite-sex couples is the natural ability to procreate, but "[n]ever has the state inquired into procreative capacity or intent before issuing a marriage license" (p. 111). Instead, what has remained constant about marriage is not the parties to a marriage -- it was not long ago that blacks and whites could not marry each other -- but that two individuals freely commit to one another. The true shibboleth of marriage, then, is love and commitment, not procreation. As such, this is a fundamental right.

So, the plaintiffs simply want California to recognize their fundamental right to marry whomever they choose. That itself does not mean Prop 8 is unconstitutional. Laws can interfere with fundamental rights and not run afoul of the Due Process clause as long as they pass strict scrutiny, that high hurdle that, in legal lingo, requires the law to be "narrowly tailored to a compelling government interest." In other words, the law has to be specific, engulf as few people as absolutely necessary in order to do something the government really must do.

Prop 8 comes nowhere close to that standard. Once again, the facts offered into evidence at trial play an important role. Unfortunately for Prop 8 proponents, they offered no facts. When Judge Walker asked for their evidence, Prop 8 proponents declined to prove the compelling need, relying instead on "the nature of traditional marriage." On that "minimal evidentiary presentation," Prop 8 could not pass strict scrutiny.

One down.

Equal Protection. Judge Walker held that even under the much lower rational basis test, Prop 8 does not pass muster. He was thorough enough, however, to ******* a strict scrutiny analysis just for good measure.

Under rational basis review, a law can discriminate as long as it does not target a specific suspect class or impairs a fundamental right and is "rationally related to some legitimate government interest." That sounds complicated, but it's really pretty easy to jump that hurdle. Most laws will make it because there are plenty of rational reasons to do things. But a reviewing court cannot rubber stamp a law simply because someone says their justification is rational. Not every justification is rational. In particular, discriminating against a particular group of people simply because you don't like that group is neither rational nor related to a legitimate government motive.

The trial evidence, however, suggests that gay people are a suspect class because they have "experience[d]iscrimination based on unfair stereotypes and prejudices specific to sexual orientation." They have "historically been targeted for discrimination because of their sexual orientation" and that discrimination is ongoing. And Prop 8 falls into that category. Proponents argued that it couldn't discriminate against gay people because Prop 8 never mentioned the word gay. That's being too cute by half. By defining marriage in terms of opposite sex, those who would choose to marry someone of the same sex -- only homosexuals fit that category -- have had their rights taken away.

But that is what lawyers call "dicta", or, conclusions of law in an opinion that do not bear directly on the ultimate decision. Judge Walker included it for a reason, though. By saying that Prop 8 merits strict scrutiny because it targets a class of people that should be considered a suspect classification, Judge Walker is setting the stage for arguments on appeal and emphasizing how ill-conceived and irrational Prop 8 really is. It's like losing two baseball games 1-0 and 20-0. You still lost both, but in the second game, you embarrassed yourself.

Under a rational basis review, Prop 8 could not even advance a single rational government interest. Whatever marriage might have been "traditionally," tradition alone cannot be a rational basis. Judge Walker cited precedent for that. He also found that the "tradition" of restricting marriage to opposite sex couples does, in fact, harm the state's interest in equality, stable households, property distribution and caregiving, to name just a few. Nor is it rational to uphold Prop 8 because same-sex marriage would amount to sweeping social upheaval. There was no evidence for that. Massachusetts and Connecticut, after all, have not fallen into the Atlantic Ocean. And, banning same-sex marriage does not nothing for the state's interest in encouraging sex within marriage. If anything, by prohibiting certain couples from marrying, Prop 8 encourages extra-marital sex. Nor can moral objection to same-sex relationships or same-sex conduct justify discrimination. Pure animus is irrational and certainly not a legitimate state interest.

UPDATE: What Now? And What Does It All Mean?

Logistics

You might be wondering how Judge Walker's well-reasoned and thorough opinion might impact our world tomorrow. In a word, it won't. While the Order allowed California to start issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples, the relief has been stayed pending appeal to the Ninth Circuit.

The parties will prepare their briefs in the coming months and deliver oral argument before a 3-judge panel on the Circuit. Due to the high profile nature of the case, any decision by the panel will likely result in "en banc consdieration" by the entire Ninth Circuit. That means that after one round of appellate hearings before three judges, another round in front of every Ninth Circuit judge will likely take place. Then the case may be fast-tracked to the Supreme Court.

That is, unless the issue becomes moot. How? Marriage equality supporters are already gearing up for a push to overturn Prop 8 on the 2012 ballot. If current polling is accurate in suggesting that a majority of Californians now support marriage equality, a pro-equality victory at the ballot box before the Supreme Court takes the case may obviate the need for a Supreme Court hearing.

Some Substantive Questions

This decision is momentous. Do not forget that. Never before as a federal court declared that the gay community warrants special protection and never before has a federal court declared so clearly that marriage discrimination is so irrational.

But there is a legal mine field awaiting marriage equality lawyers going forward. For one thing, the Supreme Court, as currently constituted, is a conservative institution and among the most conservative Supreme Courts in our history. It is more than a little unnerving to realize that our rights might ultimately rest in the hands of Bush appointees.

More specifically, strict scrutiny is a tough sell. Supreme Courts since the 1970s have moved away from strict scrutiny jurisprudence with some zeal even to the point of contorting themselves into pretzels to create a new type of standard of review -- so-called "intermediate scrutiny" -- for gender classifications simply because the Court could not muster a majority for expanding the list of Warren Court era "suspect classifications." Whether the Court will be willing to do today what it would not do decades ago is an open question.

Therein lies the genius of Judge Walker's opinion. He touches on strict scrutiny but doesn't need it. His strategy may prove to be our saving grace in the end.

 
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:37 AM   #21
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suck it monte.

 
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:46 AM   #22
Eulogy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Omega Concern View Post
What's non-nonsensical, non-legal about arguing the process of the California Initiatives being subverted by a single judge when the legal hurdles any initiative has to jump through (including Constitutional ones) just to get on the ballot alone should preclude any single judge overturning a vote within that state. Period.

And now children are gonna equate Tom and Bruce in the same light as your grandparents what with the "progressive"curriculum in the schools such as it is, especially in this state. lol. Good luck with it man.
Wow, I didn't know you were a conspiracy theorist and a fucking idiot.

 
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:09 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
i dunno. i'm gonna read the whole decision at some point... but it certainly doesn't seem "activist."

so all the gays need to marry there real quick before the SCOTUS reverses it.
you really should read up on things before commenting. Prop 8 is still in place pending appeal

 
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:11 AM   #24
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also does anyone else find it surprising that they chose an openly gay activist judge from san francisco to rule on this case

 
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:26 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son View Post
you really should read up on things before commenting. Prop 8 is still in place pending appeal
the stay wasn't part of the initial reports. that news came out a few hours later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son View Post
also does anyone else find it surprising that they chose an openly gay activist judge from san francisco to rule on this case
you do know he was randomly assigned the case right, not chosen? you probably do. now, you can omega concern that all you want, it is a curious aspect worth noting, but not much more than that.

Last edited by Andy / : 08-05-2010 at 11:34 AM.

 
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:37 AM   #26
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also does anyone else find it surprising that they chose an openly gay activist judge from san francisco to rule on this case
Not to mention that his conduct of the trial was pretty bad. He got slapped down by appellate courts a couple times during the trial itself (which is unusual) for things he was trying to do that (coincidentally I'm sure) were things opposed by the anti-gay-marriage side. He even had the US Supreme Court have to come in and overrule one of his orders at one point, which is exceedingly odd. It doesn't seem like the appearance of impartiality was very high on his list. And what little I've read thus far of/about the opinion itself seems to bear that out too.

 
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:43 AM   #27
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you do know he was randomly assigned the case right, not chosen? you probably do. now, you can omega concern that all you want, it is a curious aspect worth noting, but not much more than that.
Just because he ended up with the case doesn't necessarily mean he should have stayed on it. If it's true that he has a longtime partner (as I've read a couple places), then it's quite possible that he had an interest in the outcome of the case. And if he did, he should have recused himself.

The more I read about this decision, the more it sounds like a pretty hollow victory.

 
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:45 AM   #28
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the stay wasn't part of the initial reports. that news came out a few hours later.
I heard it almost immediately after the news was official - not the New York Magazine "leak." But anyway, he jumped to conclusions there regardless.
Quote:
you do know he was randomly assigned the case right, not chosen? you probably do. now, you can omega concern that all you want, it is a curious aspect worth noting, but not much more than that.
Yes yes. Totally. Random. Politics would never get involved in something like that

Then again this is California I bet most of our judges are flaming homosexuals

 
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:45 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Corganist View Post
Not to mention that his conduct of the trial was pretty bad. He got slapped down by appellate courts a couple times during the trial itself (which is unusual) for things he was trying to do that (coincidentally I'm sure) were things opposed by the anti-gay-marriage side. He even had the US Supreme Court have to come in and overrule one of his orders at one point, which is exceedingly odd. It doesn't seem like the appearance of impartiality was very high on his list. And what little I've read thus far of/about the opinion itself seems to bear that out too.
barf

 
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:46 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corganist View Post
Just because he ended up with the case doesn't necessarily mean he should have stayed on it. If it's true that he has a longtime partner (as I've read a couple places), then it's quite possible that he had an interest in the outcome of the case. And if he did, he should have recused himself.

The more I read about this decision, the more it sounds like a pretty hollow victory.
If this was a trial about a 2nd Amendment issue for example, the left would be going apeshit asking a judge who is a member of the NRA to recuse himself

 
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