eating meat

[MyOneAndOnly]

IMO if you could clone or grow body parts without the ethical complications of creating a sentient human being then it's perfectly ethical.

I would bet that within this century most human organs will be replaceable that way. Instead of needing a doner your doctor will take a tissue sample and grow the organ you need to replace. It will be your own genetic material. Your body will recognize it as you. And there'll be no need to go on the black market in India and buy an illegal Liver or Kidney.

Actually, the best way to replace an organ would be to grow a new one INSIDE the patient's body.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

maybe I just happen to have run into an inordinate number of pescatarians, but yeah, it's something I've heard a bunch of times.

no. that's not true. it's what people tell themselves to rationalize their food

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

no. that's not true. it's what people tell themselves to rationalize their food

I mean it is a real thing, you can look it up. I think vegetarianism, like all sorts of liberal ideologies or whatever, is usually just characterized by the loudest, most obnoxious, self-righteous moral puritans, but there are certainly reasons to go veggie that are not directly tied to ideas about the suffering of animals. There are places in the world where vegetarianism has been widely practiced in various forms for centuries and our 21st century Western ideas of animal cruelty are not the basis.

Even if it is a moral thing, I basically agree that killing a more advanced animal in terms of cognitive capability is worse than killing a simpler one. You probably don't feel bad when you kill a bug, but if you were to kill a cow that might be different. I don't really see what's wrong with eating fish but not mammals. I think the annoying part is all the self-righteous moral posturing and the need to be a "vegetarian" when you aren't. But then there are other people who say that vegetarian actually means vegan and anyone who is not vegan is not a real vegetarian.

[MyOneAndOnly]

fish have brains, nervous systems. They're self aware. They feel pain.

[redbreegull]

I know a guy who wanted to go vegan for moral and environmental reasons but didn't believe it was natural to the human body. He talked to a nutritionist or something and planned a diet in which he is vegan 5 days a week, but has one day on which he eats eggs and another on which he eats fish. He doesn't advertise himself as anything. He is totally self sufficient in terms of his meals so he never has to explain "I don't eat that today" to anyone.

it sounds way to complicated to me, but it works for him and he's unpretentious about it, so I think good for him.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

fish have brains, nervous systems. They're self aware. They feel pain.

err yes, I am aware of that

http://www.hoolinet.com/Portals/0/a1(3).jpg

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

apples and oranges. you're talking about captive domesticated animals versus human slavery. Humans and our ancestors have been meat eaters for millions of years.

although, throughout human history right up until now Slavery was wildly practiced. You can argue that it's immoral, but also that it's a "natural" aspect of human culture.

I am not really interested in what is "natural" at all tbh and yeah I agree about growing organs being the future

[bright_doom]

Originally Posted by reprise85

i watched this even though it was disgusting. not the meat eating but the puking

I'm glad you liked it

Well.. My work here is done.

[teh b0lly!!1]

this thread is supremely depressing

[teh b0lly!!1]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

maybe I just happen to have run into an inordinate number of pescatarians, but yeah, it's something I've heard a bunch of times.

i used to think there was some truth to that up until very recently.
and then, i went to some big chain supermarket where they have fish tanks full up with miserable fish waiting for their death.

there were a couple of those fish tanks, and one of them had only one fish in it. i stood there and looked at it, and it was "sniffing out" the outer wall of the fish tanks, and made repeated attempts at jumping out of it. getting over the "obstacle" separating it from freedom. it was profoundly heartbreaking.

and such a jarring contrast to the disgusting mass of people walking around the store, handbags perched on shopping carts, listening to elevator music, picking their packaged piece of a once sentient being.

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

apples and oranges. you're talking about captive domesticated animals versus human slavery. Humans and our ancestors have been meat eaters for millions of years.

although, throughout human history right up until now Slavery was wildly practiced. You can argue that it's immoral, but also that it's a "natural" aspect of human culture.

Welcome to the ongoing effects of your Catholic upbringing. There is no difference. It's apples and apples. You went on to say exactly that, though. So maybe you are already undoing it.

[vixnix]

I thought it had been established that non-mammals were definitely less sentient than mammals. Isn't that why we make a distinction between 'reptile brain' activity and 'mammal brain' activity?

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by vixnix

I thought it had been established that non-mammals were definitely less sentient than mammals. Isn't that why we make a distinction between 'reptile brain' activity and 'mammal brain' activity?

no. that's not true.

some of the most intelligent animals on the planet are not mammals. countless bird species and octopuses come to mind.

[teh b0lly!!1]

i'm thinking about this subject quite a lot tbh. it's become sort of an obsession.

i eat as little meat as i possibly can, but i didn't dramatically "GIVE UP" on anything. sometimes i think that that's because of the stuff scottie has said in this thread - that it won't really matter anyway, that "pure" vegetarianism is just as supportive of the same cruel demeanor. but deep inside i feel like i'm lying to myself.

when i do eat meat, i don't see it as "meat" anymore - i see it as what it is. severed meat of a tortured animal, wrapped up in plastic and laid in front of me. i ate some chicken maybe once in the past two months, beef - a handful of times, and when i get sushi i try to maintain a 1:2 ratio in fish:vegetarian rolls.

i mean, i am trying. but it's like, no matter where you turn, you're going to cause horrendous amounts of pain and discomfort to a living creature, that many times i think to myself that i respect much more than most humans. it's like, what's the way out? if you eat meat, you support murder. if you eat dairy, you support torture. if you eat eggs, you support torture. if you're vegetarian, you support a wholly different kind of murder.
maybe it's just an extension of my anxiety but i constantly feel guilty for it. i've become very aware of just how monstrous and gut wrenchingly emotionless this industry is, and i'm part of it simply by existing.

i could theoretically grow lettuce and not participate in this holocaust ever again, but i don't. which makes me the ultimate hypocrite. because in my eyes humans and animals are most definitely equal. i don't think i'd feel worse about eating industrialized human flesh, hypothetically. we all feel the same basic emotions. we all wish to avoid pain and just live our lives simply. a friend of mine always says that a human life is worth more than the life of a cat, or a dog, or whatever else - and i vehemently disagree. though i suppose most people would be on his side.

besides seeing how massive this murderous industry is, i can't help but feel lucky to have fallen on the 'right' side of things. but of course it nullifies every bad thing that's happening in my life because it can't compare to terror and pain and fear of death and torture.... sigh. see what i mean?

[fuzzyroes]

I've thought about giving up meat for years, but really I've got so much other shit in my life and just don't really have the means and time to commit to it.

I have given up pork aside from bacon though. I know that doesn't make much sense, but I just feel too savage biting into ribs or slabs of ham. I don't feel so bad when it's cows or chickens

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1

i'm thinking about this subject quite a lot tbh. it's become sort of an obsession.

i eat as little meat as i possibly can, but i didn't dramatically "GIVE UP" on anything. sometimes i think that that's because of the stuff scottie has said in this thread - that it won't really matter anyway, that "pure" vegetarianism is just as supportive of the same cruel demeanor. but deep inside i feel like i'm lying to myself.

when i do eat meat, i don't see it as "meat" anymore - i see it as what it is. severed meat of a tortured animal, wrapped up in plastic and laid in front of me. i ate some chicken maybe once in the past two months, beef - a handful of times, and when i get sushi i try to maintain a 1:2 ratio in fish:vegetarian rolls.

i mean, i am trying. but it's like, no matter where you turn, you're going to cause horrendous amounts of pain and discomfort to a living creature, that many times i think to myself that i respect much more than most humans. it's like, what's the way out? if you eat meat, you support murder. if you eat dairy, you support torture. if you eat eggs, you support torture. if you're vegetarian, you support a wholly different kind of murder.
maybe it's just an extension of my anxiety but i constantly feel guilty for it. i've become very aware of just how monstrous and gut wrenchingly emotionless this industry is, and i'm part of it simply by existing.

i could theoretically grow lettuce and not participate in this holocaust ever again, but i don't. which makes me the ultimate hypocrite. because in my eyes humans and animals are most definitely equal. i don't think i'd feel worse about eating industrialized human flesh, hypothetically. we all feel the same basic emotions. we all wish to avoid pain and just live our lives simply. a friend of mine always says that a human life is worth more than the life of a cat, or a dog, or whatever else - and i vehemently disagree. though i suppose most people would be on his side.

besides seeing how massive this murderous industry is, i can't help but feel lucky to have fallen on the 'right' side of things. but of course it nullifies every bad thing that's happening in my life because it can't compare to terror and pain and fear of death and torture.... sigh. see what i mean?

I feel you man. Do remember we are stuck no matter what... it's not your fault

[redbreegull]

Another concern is that meat is very unhealthy for the human body except in fairly small quantities. We lived 200,000 years eating meat as a minor supplement to our veggie diet, and then everything changed with agriculture. Today in the US most people don't consider a meal complete without meat, but most modern tribal societies get over 3/4 of their protein intake from non-animal sources, at least suggesting that meat was truly a treat for human beings for the vast majority of our existence.

[reprise85]

i ate seafood salad today but so far no other meat. i really wanted a burger for lunch but i got the seafood thing instead, it was not the best but im over the meat craving for today i think.

[redbreegull]

I have a question for the people here who are espousing the view that killing any animal is basically equally wrong, and I'm not being smart I'm honestly curious: Do you guys kill bugs? What about if you have rats, would you set traps? I'm guessing that probably at least everyone smashes mosquitoes. Do you see killing pests as different because it's like some form of defense as opposed to killing animals for resources?

While Scotty is right that intelligence can't be determined by some kind of mammal/reptile brain division since crows and octopuses for example are among the smartest animals, I do think that not all animals are equally intelligent, capable of emotional complexity, etc. In a way there is a hierarchy I think. Obviously no human can really know what a fly or a sea cucumber feels or "thinks," but there are reasons to believe they don't experience the universe with the emotional dynamicism and intellectual capacity as human beings. A human burns itself on the stove and learns not to do so again because of the pain and emotional distress. The hot stove inspires fear and caution. A fly can't learn like this though. It will repeat injurious behaviors to itself over and over, which raises questions about the evolutionary purpose of pain and if animals with much simpler nervous systems experience pain in any way we can relate to.

Not saying any of this makes it automatically ok to kill animals... I love animals and like many people, cruelty towards animals often stresses me more than cruelty towards people. I just also don't really see all animals being of some kind of equal and sacred order where they each have the same personhood as a human.

[vixnix]

In terms of intelligence, performance of seemingly complicated tasks does not necessarily demonstrate the presence of intelligence. Sphex wasps are a good example of this. Their actions appear highly intelligent, but are actually hardwired.

[duovamp]

You can't walk if you're too afraid of stepping on ants.

We have far more options than cavemen did to live healthy long lives where you can enjoy delicious tastes.

[duovamp]

I mean we don't stop eagles from eating field mice do we?

[reprise85]

the taco bell cheesy bean and rice burrito is good and big and only $1. TIL

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by duovamp

I mean we don't stop eagles from eating field mice do we?

certain animals are obligate carnivores, like cats. they have to eat meat because of amino acids their bodies dont make on their own. i dont know about eagles but generally if we assume animals eat what is best for them evolutionarily, humans have a distinct advantage of being able to philosophize about how evolution has affected them, e.g. like me if I really want to eat meat but choose not to. It doesn't mean someone who does eat meat is morally wrong. I'd never claim that the ethics of eating meat has an easy answer or any answer, for that matter. As Scotty pointed out, eating meat will not save the planet and human engineered farms and techniques cause their own set of harms to plants, animals, and the environment.

[duovamp]

I'm just saying eating meat is something humans do. It's almost unnatural of them to do otherwise.

[redbreegull]

There is a popular argument in anthropology that the development of the modern homo sapien brain was fueled by a significant increase in the amount of meat our species ate vs. our non-homo homo sapien ancestors. Modern humans are the greatest long distance runners of any animals, and this could have led to increased success in hunting, a bigger place for meat in our diet, and the rise of the modern human and our big cerebral cortexes.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by duovamp

I'm just saying eating meat is something humans do. It's almost unnatural of them to do otherwise.

This seems like an appeal to tradition fallacy. Even if it was something we had to do at one point, that is no longer the case.

I'd like to reiterate that I personally am not bothered by "natural" vs. "un-natural." Anything we do is natural. We are nature.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

There is a popular argument in anthropology that the development of the modern homo sapien brain was fueled by a significant increase in the amount of meat our species ate vs. our non-homo homo sapien ancestors. Modern humans are the greatest long distance runners of any animals, and this could have led to increased success in hunting, a bigger place for meat in our diet, and the rise of the modern human and our big cerebral cortexes.

no doubt

[redbreegull]

I can't even vaguely explain how increased protein and iron consumption led to brain evolution though. I'm not dating the archaeologist anymore so my human anthropology quick reference is not available for immediate comment.

you are totally absolutely right about the natural/unnatural distinction. Nature is a construct by which we divide ourselves from the rest of the universe, but it's a cultural idea, not a physical scientific one. And yes, it can be logical fallacy to draw connection between what is good or moral based on what is "natural." Humans have killed each other probably since metaphorical day one of our species, but I don't think that is any reason to accept murder or war because they are "natural."

[teh b0lly!!1]

the way i see it, what's so terribly wrong with humanity today is that everybody eats meat even though they wouldn't be able to kill the animal they're eating (both in the sense of hunting it down, and in the sense of actually getting blood on their hands).
how many people would be able to gut a pig to get some bacon on their nicely wrapped spankillicious burger? barely any, on a grand scale.

there's a massive degeneration going on. people are going to walmarts and fight each other in the aisles and people post squiggly youtube vids of them fighting with giggling going on in the background.
animals do their own killing, and that makes it more legitimate in my eyes. it's only one animal at a time, and it lasts for days worth of meals to them. it may not be pretty, but THAT'S nature. humans, on the other hand, have somehow cheated the system by industrialization, and even though a great deal of the world's population are absolutely worthless, they still contribute more destruction and cruelty than any animal ever will.

anyway to answer the question in hand, i don't think it's terribly wrong to kill a cockroach. i think 'pure' food chain hunting, i.e caveman hunting, would be legitimate, if still somewhat unfortunate. that's life. but what's going on today is warped, appalling and wrong. again, it all comes down to massive, massive overpopulation.