What are the odds that 28if is going to come back to the board...

[killtrocity]

Originally Posted by hnibos

And that space travel isn't possible.

This is an interesting point. Today, the idea of interplanetary space travel is literally magical. The implications of our current understanding of basic physics are that it would take at least hundreds of years for a vessel to travel to the nearest extrasolar system, assuming the vehicle is traveling near the speed of light, which is nowhere close to being possible (at present time). It is totally accurate to say that the belief in extrasolar travel is equivalent to a belief in magic and therefore is an irrational faith. (I know you were just talking about going to the moon, but it got me thinking). If scientific understanding 1000 years in the future accounts for some new understanding of the way the universe functions which allows for some exploitation or loophole in physics and therefore enables interplanetary travel, then the belief will no longer be "magical". But today the notion is strictly an irrational one, because there is no evidence to the contrary. That does not mean the "magical act" is impossible, because honestly we do not know. We can only make the best leap of rational faith based on the resources and evidence presently available to us.


I guess my point is that the idea of "magic" is a synonym for "irrational faith", and that what qualifies as "magic" or irrational thought is inherently going to change based on the time period, since whether a thought is rational or not depends entirely on logic and therefore evidence (whether an event is repeatable given the same conditions), and the body of evidence changes over time, sometimes conflicting with ideas which were previously held to be rational; the world is flat, the world is the center of the universe, human flight is impossible, benzene is shaped like a prism... I actually would go even further and say that it is ignorant to assume that our current body of evidence, in terms of how the universe functions, is not going to change much over the next 1000 years. But that doesn't change the fact that a belief in extrasolar travel is currently, by definition, a belief in magic.

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by killtrocity

You cannot concretely say whether hydrogen and oxygen atoms bond to form water because of incontrovertible properties of our universe, or because they choose to bond to each other because it is moral to do so, or because there is some "magical" property of subatomic particles that we cannot yet rationalize. At some point you have to make a rational leap of faith, but in the case of institutional discrimination the leap is not nearly so great as the leap required to explain quantum mechanics.

Okay and the entire universe you know to be real could just be the invention of your insane mind and you can never actually know reality.

-or-

You can test and predict shit. Because if you can derive equations from the way one thing works, you can apply it to other things, and see if it holds true. You don't really have any basic background in science, do you?

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

one is a mythical creature

they are the fighting irish not the fighting leprechauns, even the name is offensive and derogatory. Because u no the irish are always drunk an fiting lol

besides the leprechaun was used a frequent slur against the irish

and before anyone jumps to conclusions i'm perfectly aware that i do not suffer from any sort of systemic oppression on account of my ethnic heritage (my mental illness on the other hand...) but that's because it was ground under the wheels of american white anglo saxon protestant culture, re-appropriated and now it's just kind of a joke.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

again, you're missing the point entirely.

i don't think i am, you think systemically oppressed minority groups should be respected, protected and coddled to but you're perfectly ok with mocking everyone else that you don't think is systemically oppressed and all i'm trying to say is that you shouldn't really mock anyone's culture if you don't like it, and that would be just and not hypocritical

i think the key flaw in your thinking is how i mentioned people culturally cling to religion because it's what is important to their culture and you immediately jumped to "but then they foist it on everyone else"

first of all not all religious people want to make it your business
second of all you consistently foist your own beliefs and value judgement on others

i'm also not saying i'm any better but i don't get on soap boxes about hipsters wearing indian feather bonnets at music festivals because it really really doesn't matter, especially if you consider the broad scope of history

also i'd like to point out that probably the vast majority of Catholics are systemically oppressed non whites.

[Trotskilicious]

also race war is a diversion for class war

workers of the world unite!!!

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

i don't think i am, you think systemically oppressed minority groups should be respected, protected and coddled to but you're perfectly ok with mocking everyone else that you don't think is systemically oppressed and all i'm trying to say is that you shouldn't really mock anyone's culture if you don't like it, and that would be just and not hypocritical

i think the key flaw in your thinking is how i mentioned people culturally cling to religion because it's what is important to their culture and you immediately jumped to "but then they foist it on everyone else"

first of all not all religious people want to make it your business
second of all you consistently foist your own beliefs and value judgement on others

do i try to legislatively and constitutionally ensure that they have lesser rights than i do?

no.

this is how you continue to miss the point. i already said i don't have a problem with religious people who don't do what i'm talking about.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

cousin marriage is legal in most states, i think

or maybe not most. but a bunch.

all of the south but texas lets you marry your first cousin

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

do i try to legislatively and constitutionally ensure that they have lesser rights than i do?

no.

this is how you continue to miss the point. i already said i don't have a problem with religious people who don't do what i'm talking about.

what where is this coming from

[Trotskilicious]

i thought we were talking about how HORRIBLE it is that WHITE PEOPLE wear SACRED HATS

[Trotskilicious]

also i personally do think the ND leprechaun and chief wahoo are both obnoxious relics of racist culture

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

they are the fighting irish not the fighting leprechauns, even the name is offensive and derogatory. Because u no the irish are always drunk an fiting lol

it wasn't meant to convey fist fighting between irish people (which i realize may be seen as at odds with the logo).

In narrow, little New England, it began as a slur -- a term of opprobrium. But we took it up and made of it a badge of honor -- a symbol of fidelity and courage to everyone who suffers from discrimination; to everyone who has an uphill fight for the elemental decencies, and the basic Christian principles woven into the texture of our nation. Preserving this tradition, and this meaning of Irish at Notre Dame does honor to everyone of us. It explains why Lewinski belongs here; why Alessandrini is the Irish leader; why Schmaltz belongs here; why Bertrand, and Moreau, Van Dyke, and Larson feel at home here as much as do Leahy and O’Brien.

[Trotskilicious]

oh please

[Trotskilicious]

you know i'm sure florida state has a similar explanation of why a white boy rides around on a pony with a spear

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

what where is this coming from

you're not aware of all the constitutional amendments in states banning gay marriage because god says marriage has to be between one man and one woman?

or that the most prominent funders of prop 8 were mormons? or that the conference of catholic bishops and knights of columbus raised shittons of money for it?

i know you don't think it's a big deal but it's a perfect example of what i'm talking about. people's religion also dictates education policy and women's health issues and sex education and on and on and on

is this news?

edit: this is in response to you saying that i hoist my beliefs onto people in the same way religious people do. i absolutely do not. i don't want to take away mormons' right to get fucking married. jesus christ.

[Trotskilicious]

i was never talking about that

[Trotskilicious]

seriously this is about the OUTRAGE at WHITE PEOPLE wearing SACRED HATS at COACHELLA!!!!!!

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

it wasn't meant to convey fist fighting between irish people (which i realize may be seen as at odds with the logo).

So later down the road we can have the Louisiana Thieving Niggers and that'd be cool?

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

you know i'm sure florida state has a similar explanation of why a white boy rides around on a pony with a spear

i mean, ok

i'm not exactly the biggest defender of that institution anyway.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by duovamp

So later down the road we can have the Louisiana Thieving Niggers and that'd be cool?

i think that is pretty clearly different.

but i don't really care to defend it so sure it's exactly the same as a team being called the "niggers."

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

seriously this is about the OUTRAGE at WHITE PEOPLE wearing SACRED HATS at COACHELLA!!!!!!

I've got an outraging boner for those sacred hats on WhoamP girl.

[duovamp]

And by hats I mean tits.

[Trotskilicious]

and i'm like

so if i go as a catholic priest for halloween, that would outrage my catholic friends but most of you wouldn't care, the ones that are upset about WHITE PEOPLE!!! WEARING HATS!!!!Q

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

seriously this is about the OUTRAGE at WHITE PEOPLE wearing SACRED HATS at COACHELLA!!!!!!

no, you brought that up. it was about religion and american christianity in particular.

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

but i don't really care to defend it so sure it's exactly the same as a team being called the "niggers."

lol Check and MATE. *dusts off hands*

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

i think that is pretty clearly different.

but i don't really care to defend it so sure it's exactly the same as a team being called the "niggers."

redskins is exactly the same as far as i'm concerned

yet their logo i find to be classy, go figure.

[Eulogy]

i've always thought it odd that there is a professional sports team called the redskins

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

no, you brought that up. it was about religion and american christianity in particular.

it was all a back door to the absurdity of the whole culture war crusade, how people with white privledge like yourself and ****** want to pretend like you're enlightened by caring about white people wearing hats but both of you don't hesitate to marginalize and mock mainstream american culture and religion and then create a justification for it because they're the oppressors or whatever. so what, it's still contradictory.

you realize that native americans are also incredibly hostile to homosexuality right

[redbreegull]

I am undecided in this argument. On one hand, I can see the the wisdom in Trots' argument that prejudice is prejudice regardless of whether it targets race, sex, or belief.

On the other hand, it seems eulogy is saying that people's persuasions and opinions are not necessarily off-limits when they cause harm in the world. Should I be tolerant of fascists or of the kkk? Is it wrong to ridicule racists for their beliefs? Is that sort of indoctrinated belief really different than a religious belief?

28if is the only person who can answer these questions for us

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

it was all a back door to the absurdity of the whole culture war crusade, how people with white privledge like yourself and ****** want to pretend like you're enlightened by caring about white people wearing hats but both of you don't hesitate to marginalize and mock mainstream american culture and religion

you realize that native americans are also incredibly hostile to homosexuality right

again

now read this slowly, and pay attention

my problem with religion arises out of american christianity's ability to construct social policy that is ultimately grounded in things no one can know to be true. if native americans held majorities in state legislatures and decided to bring up bills making it illegal to mention a sexual orientation other than heterosexual in public schools then i'd be bitching about them. but they aren't, so i don't need to.

i would still think religious people were wrong, but i wouldn't care and i'd let them be.

i'm not going to mock some progressive episcopalian or UCC church.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

i've always thought it odd that there is a professional sports team called the redskins

i went to Ski Apache in Riodoso, NM, which is an apache run ski resort as far as i know, back in 94 when they last were good and i was consistently amazed and surprised at the number of apaches wearing redskins hats

i mean i guess to them it was kind of like how black guys call each other nigga? i dunno it was weird, especially since there was a native protest at the super bowl that year.