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Old 07-10-2007, 03:54 PM   #1
The Trashbirds
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Default Machina II: Forgotten Finale

On my way to work today I got stuck in one of the largest and most annoying traffic jams of my admittedly limited existence. I was stuck for 1 1/2 hours beyond what I normally anticipate, and so I got the chance to listen all the way through the Machina II LP.

This always seems to be the forgotten portion of the Pumpkins catalog to anyone other than a hardcore fan. Now, admittedly this makes sense, given that it was release online and the fans were the most specifically interested in getting it, but consider the following:

1. Many websites consider Zeitgeist to be the Smashing Pumpkins 6th LP, ignoring Machina II either out of ignorance or because they don't consider anything not published en masse to count as an LP.

2. Allmusic (despite their often shitty reviews) is a very good website for cataloging all things music, yet it has Machina II listed as a compilation work, not an LP. Furthermore, it has all the tracks listed consecutively starting with the first EP, with no regard for their original divisions, or the fact that they were meant to be considered as separate works within the same set.

3. Websites and no-nothing fans alike are criticizing Billy Corgan for being an cash whore, stating that he resurrected the Pumpkins for purely financial reasons. This completely ignores that he released this album and the accompanying EPs for free. Not only that, but he had to break contract with Virgin at his own expense to do it.

4. In most polls in this forum regarding Smashing Pumpkins albums (best/worst, first/last tracks, epic tracks), Machina II is routinely forgotten to be *******d as one of the Pumpkins' main canonical albums.


Of course I understand this phenomenon, but I'd like to sort of counteract it for a moment.

I did not really get into Machina II (the LP that is) when it was released, mostly listening to it only on sparse occasions. Yet in relistening to it this morning, I found myself refreshingly amazed with the energy of the album, the quality of the songs (even as potential singles), and the overall epic scope of the production.

I think its a great album, and I just wanted to start a bit of a discussion thread about it in a time where most reviews tout Machina as the final (and rather lackluster) installment in the career of the original Smashing Pumpkins when anyone who investigates knows this to be a misnomer.

Also, Machina II is much better than Machina. Would Machina have been another Mellon Collie if it had actually had the second disc as part of the package? Or do Machina and Machina II stand better as solo discs?

Finally, what if we had never heard Machina II and it was the Pumpkins first effort back from the grave instead of Zeitgeist (excluding Iha's "Go," of course)? Would you think their return was more triumphant, or would it sound more like they were trying to relive the year 2000?

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 03:57 PM   #2
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because it sucks?

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 03:59 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Trashbirds
On my way to work today I got stuck in one of the largest and most annoying traffic jams of my admittedly limited existence. I was stuck for 1 1/2 hours beyond what I normally anticipate, and so I got the chance to listen all the way through the Machina II LP.

This always seems to be the forgotten portion of the Pumpkins catalog to anyone other than a hardcore fan. Now, admittedly this makes sense, given that it was release online and the fans were the most specifically interested in getting it, but consider the following:

1. Many websites consider Zeitgeist to be the Smashing Pumpkins 6th LP, ignoring Machina II either out of ignorance or because they don't consider anything not published en masse to count as an LP.

2. Allmusic (despite their often shitty reviews) is a very good website for cataloging all things music, yet it has Machina II listed as a compilation work, not an LP. Furthermore, it has all the tracks listed consecutively starting with the first EP, with no regard for their original divisions, or the fact that they were meant to be considered as separate works within the same set.

3. Websites and no-nothing fans alike are criticizing Billy Corgan for being an cash whore, stating that he resurrected the Pumpkins for purely financial reasons. This completely ignores that he released this album and the accompanying EPs for free. Not only that, but he had to break contract with Virgin at his own expense to do it.

4. In most polls in this forum regarding Smashing Pumpkins albums (best/worst, first/last tracks, epic tracks), Machina II is routinely forgotten to be *******d as one of the Pumpkins' main canonical albums.


Of course I understand this phenomenon, but I'd like to sort of counteract it for a moment.

I did not really get into Machina II (the LP that is) when it was released, mostly listening to it only on sparse occasions. Yet in relistening to it this morning, I found myself refreshingly amazed with the energy of the album, the quality of the songs (even as potential singles), and the overall epic scope of the production.

I think its a great album, and I just wanted to start a bit of a discussion thread about it in a time where most reviews tout Machina as the final (and rather lackluster) installment in the career of the original Smashing Pumpkins when anyone who investigates knows this to be a misnomer.

Also, Machina II is much better than Machina. Would Machina have been another Mellon Collie if it had actually had the second disc as part of the package? Or do Machina and Machina II stand better as solo discs?

Finally, what if we had never heard Machina II and it was the Pumpkins first effort back from the grave instead of Zeitgeist (excluding Iha's "Go," of course)? Would you think their return was more triumphant, or would it sound more like they were trying to relive the year 2000?
say that five times fast!

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:02 PM   #4
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you know what machina II could be decent, but the recording is a disgrace.

If billy really wanted to do us a favor, remix or record it all, so it sounds as good as saturnine on the rottenapples cd.

but giving us a free download of some half done tracks, fuck off.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:03 PM   #5
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i like your thoughts, i've always loved Machina II...its a mission.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:04 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teamneedle
but giving us a free download of some half done tracks, fuck off.
try overdone

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:05 PM   #7
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I think people are turned off by Machina II's hissy sound quality. Some of the songs sound like finished pieces of work (Cash Car Star, Real Love, Let Me Give the World to You), but most sound like Machina-era demos, rather than an entirely new album with its own sound.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:08 PM   #8
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I, personally, really like the recording quality as an element of the concept for the album.

It was a big "Fuck you!" to Virgin Records, and they used tapes from songs they had recorded at Virgin, and I think the lo fi nature was not only a result of that, but Billy decided to stick with a lo fi theme in order to give sort of an artistic edge to that "Fuck you."

It's clear to me that the distortion and lo fi sound was increased a lot in White Spyder. There's no way that song originally was laid down that fuzzy. That being said, I really like what they did with it.

Another strange element of Machina II is the abrupt cut-offs of certain songs. Again, an odd artistic choice by Billy, but nonetheless a choice.

The album doesn't suck by any means in my opinion. The first half of it is especially strong. Almost all the critics that took time to review it (not many) also gave it very positive reviews, especially compared to its fraternal twin Machina (I know, I know, "Fuck the critics!").

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:09 PM   #9
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i feel you, The Trashbirds. MACHINA II absolutely counts as far as i'm concerned. but "6th album" is the official line on Zeitgeist from the band & co. themselves. i like to think that they're counting both MACHINAs as a single work.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:11 PM   #10
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I think machina 2 has some good songs in cash car star, dross, speed kills...upbeat version.
Machina 1 and 2 would not make a mellon collie although the thought has crossed my mind. However, if you took speed kills, ccstar, dross and added them to machina 1.....you could make a pretty good cd......take that 10 second rant out of TEGaze...make speed kills track 2 instead of rain drops......and who knows you got a decent cd.

A machina cd consisting of TEG, speed kills, SIYL, Iofthe Mourning, age of innocnence, dross, cash car star, wound......VS. Zeitgeist.....I WANNA SAY ID PREFER ZEITGIEST SINCE I LIKE TRACKS 1 THROUGH 7 , 9,10, POMP AND STELLAR. I THINK ZEITGEIST IS FRESH AND THATS WHY I PREFER IT OVER THE MACHINA 1/2 HYBRID. IF THE MACHINA 1/2 HYBRID CAME OUT WHEN ADORE DID....WHO KNOWS SP MAY HAVE BEEN CHUGGING OUT ALBUMS FOR THE LAST DECADE FULL OF GOOD STUFF AND WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER OFF.

TEABAGGING DARRELL

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:13 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apetulantfrenzy
I think people are turned off by Machina II's hissy sound quality. Some of the songs sound like finished pieces of work (Cash Car Star, Real Love, Let Me Give the World to You), but most sound like Machina-era demos, rather than an entirely new album with its own sound.
I actually prefer the Machina demos over both Machina or Machina II. The latter sucks a little less but still not that great.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:14 PM   #12
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didn't billy go to court in '98 to try and get out of his contract and claim he did his 7 records
Gish
SD
Pisces Iscariot
MCIS Disk 1
MCIS Disk 2
TAFH
Adore

but it didn't take... so he still owed virgin....



after following the arising tour.... machina II seemed like an integral part of the "Machina Era"
I always saw it as another 'layer' to the story
Billy's funny ways of playing with the mystery
it was fun.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:15 PM   #13
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In many ways after hearing Machina II I wondered why the hell they kept so much of that material off of Machina. I mean, the first three tracks are all a lot more rockin' then almost anything on Machina.

On Machina, The Everlasting Gaze is the only song that is even in the same "rock out" category of most of the songs on Machina II. Also, Machina is very clean in a lot of areas, and Machina II is anything but. I've often deeply wondered how Billy originally envisioned it as a double album.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:15 PM   #14
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No wonder they gave it away free, would anyone have bought it?

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:16 PM   #15
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wasn't it concluded that Billy left the best stuff off Machina and *******d it on Machina II to fuck over Virgin Records?

Speed Kills, Dross, Let Me Give the World to You (although from the adore era), Saturnine, & Cash Car Star were the best songs from the Machina era.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:18 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesey
wasn't it concluded that Billy left the best stuff off Machina and *******d it on Machina II to fuck over Virgin Records?
i'm sure there are some deranged fans who have come to that conclusion, yes.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:20 PM   #17
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Machina 2 has better production than Zeigeist.


I have always loved a bunch of those songs:

In My Body
Innocence
Saturnine
Soul Power
Go
BSBT Electrique
Glass theme

Prolly somemore i am not thinking of.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pale blue eyes
I actually prefer the Machina demos
I like em, too. There's a solo/piano version of Crying Tree of Mercury that really could've saved that song's reputation...ah well.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:26 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccririck
No wonder they gave it away free, would anyone have bought it?
So many fans in this forum seem to hate Corgan's work (ALL of it) from Adore forward, or at least from Machina forward. If I hated half a band's or half a man's career, I wouldn't get an avatar for a forum about it and then frequent it.

Not to pick on you mccririck, because I don't necessarily think YOU are that way, but your comment reminded me of a LOT of what I read around here.

Last edited by The Trashbirds : 07-10-2007 at 04:31 PM.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:29 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apetulantfrenzy
I like em, too. There's a solo/piano version of Crying Tree of Mercury that really could've saved that song's reputation...ah well.
I love the guitar solo in there....
the tone... sooo thick and fuzzed
it feels like it is trying hard to break through (literally)
it's painful.... just like the lyrics
it's beautiful.... gives me shivers every time.....

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:39 PM   #21
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Hey, someone quickly tell me which Machina II version is best. I have the Q101 version and used to have something a lot crappier, but I think there's something better, no?

I love Machina II in this weird, quirky way. I remember spending entire days downloading three songs on my dial-up modem, and even though they sounded pretty crappy, I loved them.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:52 PM   #22
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i think the SPIFC version sounds the best. the Q101 version had too much denoising...sucked the life out of it.

Vanity is one of SP's finest moments IMO...

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:00 PM   #23
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if you havent heard it yet, the 13 remaster is well worth downloading. a much more listenable album.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:01 PM   #24
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What's the difference?

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:07 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate the Grate
What's the difference?
overall the album is MUCH cleaner and clearer and the bass is extended a bit. i really dont recall much of the differences between the various rips because as soon as i got the 13 rm i tossed out all my other copies. its that good. dunno how it compares to the virgin promos, tho.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:14 PM   #26
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The material in the Machina-era wasn't strong enough to make a solid double album, but a very good single album could have come out of Machina I and II. A good half of the Machina II LP is excellent, but the other half is forgettable.

I don't forget the album as a "sixth album," though. I'd rather listen to the good half of that album than Machina (or even Machina's better half) any day.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:14 PM   #27
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Quote:
Also, Machina II is much better than Machina.
better? i dunno about that. different, yes. i think they complement each other quite well, kinda like kid a/amensiac.

Quote:
Would Machina have been another Mellon Collie if it had actually had the second disc as part of the package? Or do Machina and Machina II stand better as solo discs?
had virgin allowed billy to follow through w/ his plans of making the album available to those who bought machina, i really do believe it would have sold more copies. back in early 2000 downloading music was something of a novelty and such an act would have really put them out in front. a bonus disc is a huge selling point, imo.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:15 PM   #28
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I'm currently downloading the Virgin promo version.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:19 PM   #29
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I personally dig Machina 2 alot. Songs like Glass,In my body, If there is a god, Dross, White spyder, Let me give the world to you are moments of pure Pumpkins brilliancy the way i see it. But the sound quality is really unfair to the material of the record. So has it been recorded and even aimed to be like that? Or it got screwed up somewhere between the vinyl-cds-mp3 for the world conversion?
And yeah as other said I believe that if Machina was a 2cd release in the first place (even if some tracks like "age of innocence" were being removed) would make a solid record.


Quote:
f you havent heard it yet, the 13 remaster is well worth downloading. a much more listenable album.
I have dealt with various versions in the past, source for the one you mention since you say its so much improved?

Last edited by Crystal_Chrome : 07-10-2007 at 05:26 PM.

 
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Old 07-10-2007, 06:29 PM   #30
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no mention of Home in this thread...great song IMO

 
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