Your approach to lyrics

[run2pee]

It can take a long time to figure out what a song wants, or to realize you were forcing it to wear like steve urkel pants and socks. When song just wanted to go barefoot with a bicycle helmet and nothing else

[run2pee]

Originally Posted by reprise85

I haven't written in a while, but I'm a self-confession-universal-confession kind of person. I hope to reach themes within myself that are acutely personal and yet relateable at the same time. I may not known your pain and you may not know mine, but we both know pain. You know?

Sometimes I get super personal though, like this song I wrote after whatever happened to me, happened to me. I was still mostly in denial but I knew it was fucked up. I mean this song is all of two chords but I think that's part of what makes it good, somehow. Plus I hadn't played guitar in like 4 years and had just gotten equipment so it was a good place to start again.



What have I become, my precious one?
You made me hate my life,
You made me hate my love.
And I don't even care to change the way I feel.
You don't even know me,
You only love yourself.

I changed the day I met you, and you don't even know.
I am what you made me,
Is this what you want?
And when will it end, when is enough, enough?
Will you ever shut off?
When will it stop?

I have heard a thousand lies
And seen a thousand ways
To break a person down.
I wish I didn't know you
I didn't need you
But I'll learn to live without

Life must be hard without someone to put down
Do you ever wonder
where you'd be now
If there was no one to blame,
If you could be a normal, selfish human being

I have heard a thousand lies
And seen a thousand ways
To break a person down.
I wish I didn't know you
I didn't need you
But I'll learn to live without

I like your voice. Did you revise these lyrics a lot or did they come quickly?

This is a good song. I'd like to hear it with a band arrangement. If you found a bass player that did a lot of little tasteful riffs and a poppy drummer you'd have a fucken righteous act

The lyrics = clearly felt/personal yet universal, and I like your delivery. There's such a fine like between a personal element that makes it interesting/hooks, and one that alienates. For me at least. You seem to have found a balance that works

Any tips?

[run2pee]

Do any of you write with others? I find without a drummer it's hard to get past verse/chorus

[soniclovenoize]

Originally Posted by Run To Me

This has always been the hardest part of songwriting for me. I oscillate hard between overly personal/confessional and impossibly obtuse/impressionistic. With the former I'm afraid I'll alienate anyone who hasn't shared my experiences/emotions. With the latter I'm worried the listener won't be engaged or interested in unravelling any meaning.

Just simply don't worry about alienating an audience, don't worry about a listener not being engaged.

The song should be about you, not the audience. If you are true to yourself and communicate yourself in the song, the audience will recognize that and recognize it for what it is. Recognize it has integrity. There is nothing worse than pandering.

As for myself, I started off writing more abstract imagery that, as a whole, could coalesce and communicate a feeling rather than a direct narrative. That would unfortunately require the listener to pay attention and use some interpretive skills. But as I said before it's not my problem, it's their problem. If they don't like it, go listen to something else.

It will often be stream of consciousness. An abstract image that communicates the emotion I want to communicate, or it fits with the melody/chord sequence conceptually. I then ask myself "What does that mean?" and then interpret that line, and expound on it. I keep going until the creative juice flows no more (might be two lines, might be 3/4ths of an entire song) and then set it aside until the creative juices flow again. I can never force it -- it'll only end up like shit. Unfortunately, songs can take a while to be written. but that's OK, I stand by the result. Quality over quantity.

I like to focus on how words are put together rather than the actual meaning. Sometimes how certain words are constructed will allow me to go onto the next line, so that the common thread of the lyric isn't necessarily a narrative or even concept, but a grammatical one (or lack thereof?). It's hard to explain. I also like to use internal rhyme and alliteration Or at the very least, have reoccurring consonants through a verse if reoccurring vowels become difficult or predictable.

Here's a lyric from a song I wrote that will be on the next Curiously Strong Peppermints album which is about 75% done. It's a song about songwriting, about me second-guessing the nature of the aforementioned process and if everything I've just said is complete bullshit!

A somber autumn’s slumber just to fade my fears to rest
Worries never falter, I can only lull myself
I cannot escape this shadow’s fee
The counterfeit calliope cultivating time
Fall into catch 22 and topple down this rhyme
I can eat my words and I’ll be free

When I’m left to my own devices
I succumb to my oldest vices
Swimming in this sea of ice

An onamonopea to express my state of mind
All the vowels violate and fight their way outside
Why can’t I just find the words to say?
The consonants have crumbled and I can’t escape the crash
Carnage in the castle, now I’m sifting through the ash
Haunted by the thoughts I’ve put away

When I’m left to my own devices
I succumb to my oldest vices
Swimming in this sea of ice

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Run To Me

I like your voice. Did you revise these lyrics a lot or did they come quickly?

This is a good song. I'd like to hear it with a band arrangement. If you found a bass player that did a lot of little tasteful riffs and a poppy drummer you'd have a fucken righteous act

The lyrics = clearly felt/personal yet universal, and I like your delivery. There's such a fine like between a personal element that makes it interesting/hooks, and one that alienates. For me at least. You seem to have found a balance that works

Any tips?

This was written at the end of 2004/early 2005, so it's a bit hazy but after my fucked up relationship and forced sabbatical from the guitar I had a lot in me ready to come out. I believe they came quickly and all at once, without much or any revision.

There's this other song, Learn To Live Again. At one point Shallowed (was known as Pasta of Muppets) heard it and did his own mix of it. It's really close to my heart and more fleshed out, though needs bass and drums still. My friend Tom is playing most of the electric here.



A year has passed since I've been gone
I'm still right and you're still wrong
I can't imagine ever seeing you again
Well I'm over you and everything that was
Still on my own, just been thinking of
What could have been ours to keep
Now a hate's been born of a love so deep

I will not give in to fear
My head says run but my heart says heal
Learn to live again,
Find happiness, my long lost friend
I will not be afraid to try
I'm reaching out and I don't know why
I even want to know
You can't learn the art of letting go

Time and time again you lied
Don't believe what you see with your eyes
You've gotta look inside to find out what's real
Well I look and see what I've become
Don't regret anything that I've done
What could have been, shouldn't be
And you mean nothing more to me

I will not give in to fear
My head says run but my heart says heal
Learn to live again,
Find happiness, my long lost friend
I will not be afraid to try
I'm reaching out and I don't know why
I even want to know
You can't learn the art of letting go

[reprise85]

And then some songs are barely anything in a way - but say so much and capture a mood. This was deep in my addiction and severe mental illness days

Time, I'm forever waiting
Time, I'm forever waiting
Time, I'm forever waiting

Won't you show me how?
Won't you show me, live forever?

Time, I'm forever waiting
Time, I'm forever waiting
Time, I'm forever waiting

Will that life could change
Will that life could come together
I walk into the rain
Work too hard to surrender
But, I do

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by soniclovenoize

Just simply don't worry about alienating an audience, don't worry about a listener not being engaged.

The song should be about you, not the audience. If you are true to yourself and communicate yourself in the song, the audience will recognize that and recognize it for what it is. Recognize it has integrity. There is nothing worse than pandering.

As for myself, I started off writing more abstract imagery that, as a whole, could coalesce and communicate a feeling rather than a direct narrative. That would unfortunately require the listener to pay attention and use some interpretive skills. But as I said before it's not my problem, it's their problem. If they don't like it, go listen to something else.

It will often be stream of consciousness. An abstract image that communicates the emotion I want to communicate, or it fits with the melody/chord sequence conceptually. I then ask myself "What does that mean?" and then interpret that line, and expound on it. I keep going until the creative juice flows no more (might be two lines, might be 3/4ths of an entire song) and then set it aside until the creative juices flow again. I can never force it -- it'll only end up like shit. Unfortunately, songs can take a while to be written. but that's OK, I stand by the result. Quality over quantity.

Absolutely agree with all of this this, and also like your lyrics SLN. I wish I could write more like you do, it always feels like I'm somehow trying to say things with the least amount of words possible and I'm not sure why

[redbreegull]

I appreciate lyrics of many different persuasions, but when I write there are a few things I think about I guess. I have two main wells of influence, the first being the abstract and imagistic styles of artier rock bands (Zeppelin, Pumpkins, Simon and Garfunkel, etc.) and the other being storyteller singer/songwriter folk/country whatever. I'm not terribly inventive or anything, I focus a lot on themes of home and belonging, feelings of isolation, maudlin sentimentality and nostalgia, pastoralism and the sublimity of nature.

In terms of form I really don't ever go for slant rhymes or other "shortcuts." I've read a lot of poetry in my life and this has definitely given me a more intense appreciation of strict form than most lyric writers I think. I tend away from anything too repetitive; I don't even really like to write choruses that repeat without some variation. As I go through my life I can basically never shut off my internal voice, so I am constantly musing on shit to myself, and this often results in interesting ideas or phrases or word strings. So when I can, I write em down. They go into the back of my journal and then sometimes a line or two becomes the lyrical foundation for a song and I build off it. Other times I'll find myself stuck and reference my trove of lyric ideas for help filling in blank space.

but as I have said before I've kind of given up writing music

[run2pee]

Originally Posted by soniclovenoize

Just simply don't worry about alienating an audience, don't worry about a listener not being engaged.

The song should be about you, not the audience. If you are true to yourself and communicate yourself in the song, the audience will recognize that and recognize it for what it is. Recognize it has integrity. There is nothing worse than pandering.

I admire this attitude but I find it hard to adopt. Especially growing older the time I take away from friends/family to write music seems unjustifiably selfish if the result is going to be some navelgazingly dense word salad that entertains only me.

Its not necessarily "pandering" to be cognizant of the fact you'll be asking someone to sit through it, right? I try to be aware of how I would react to what I'm writing, if I were to, say, hear some stranger at an open mic playing and singing it. Would I be hooked? Would I want to hear the next verse? Or would I be bored or--worse--embarrassed for them (me)?

I feel it's one of my basic duties of the artist to help the audience not feel too embarrassed for me, it at all possible

[Elphenor]

I think of all the lyrics I like and they are often very specifically drawn from the artists life

Sometimes even totally incomprehensible without knowing about the artist

[teh b0lly!!1]

one strain of lyrics that i always dig in others, but can't convincingly pull off myself, is that of a cynical, wry, dry humor writer. like bitterly mocking something in a very profound way, that in itself betrays emotions. like roger waters, father john misty etc.

[redbreegull]

I've always admired Morrissey's lyrics for that reason but yeah, you just have to have this certain swagger to pull it off

[Elphenor]

I like political lyrics a lot but they can't be preachy.

It takes an excellent fluency in satire to do political lyrics right

Kill Kill Kill the Poor

[Elphenor]

or the way Minutemen did it where half the time it was like a history text book melted into a poetry book

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

I like political lyrics a lot but they can't be preachy.

It takes an excellent fluency in satire to do political lyrics right

Kill Kill Kill the Poor

political music is so out of vogue as well. I think the zeitgeist is more that we want art to distract us from the real world rather than critique it and throw it back in our faces.

[Elphenor]

No more "my gf left me" songs is all I'm saying

[Disco King]

I guess I like confessional, vulnerable lyrics with a hint of self-deprecation. Like Willy Corgan, Greg Dulli, and Tim Kasher.

But I don't think I write that stuff myself because it just comes off as whining.

[Elphenor]

MarkESmith wrote something about being prideful that he didn't write a single love song in his 100 albums

He said there were just too many other more interesting things to talk about

[teh b0lly!!1]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

No more "my gf left me" songs is all I'm saying

oh i got a whole bunch of those

[Disco King]

One thing I'd like to do is write lyrics that contrast with the music sometimes. Like, when there's this happy-sounding song that you don't know the words to, and then you listen to the words, and realize it isn't so happy.

Or like... when I write one of those riffy doomy things, I really don't want to make the lyrics about armageddon/the apocalypse or an occult ritual or satan being badass or some shitty Lovecraft story. Like, metal can be about other things... I think.

I dunno, a lot of the songs I love are about that shit, but I'd just feel really silly and kitschy writing it.

[redbreegull]

panic on the streets of london

[teh b0lly!!1]

the problem is, a great vocal delivery can make almost any lyric vibrate the strings of your soul.
and a lousy one exposes all your weaknesses.

and it's probably safe to say none of us at this board are threatening Freddie Mercury's legacy

[reprise85]

i can listen to my old stuff and realize the little fuck ups in my voice that bothered me so much were really not a big deal. like you said, im not threatening freddie mercury. weird to see time capsules like that in your own music

[teh b0lly!!1]

Originally Posted by Disco King

Or like... when I write one of those riffy doomy things, I really don't want to make the lyrics about armageddon/the apocalypse or an occult ritual or satan being badass or some shitty Lovecraft story. Like, metal can be about other things... I think.

it's really disappointing how for many people, metal is so categorized as a shitty music genre, precisely because of just that (among other things, of course).

i mean i really do think that when it's done right, metal could be an extremely emotionally gratifying outlet for being angry or frustrated, both as an artist and a listener. so yeah, the vast majority of metal bands are very 'technical' in their approach and simply go by formulas, but every once in a while there's a band that really utilizes that medium to convey their emotional torment and then it's great. but then when you tell people "yeah i still like metal sometimes" they're gonna think you're sonic johnny.

[Elphenor]

Originally Posted by teh b0lly!!1

the problem is, a great vocal delivery can make almost any lyric vibrate the strings of your soul.
and a lousy one exposes all your weaknesses.

and it's probably safe to say none of us at this board are threatening Freddie Mercury's legacy

You don't have to have a good voice to be a moving and convincing vocalist nonetheless be Freddie Mercury

[Elphenor]

I am much more moved by the before mentioned Roger Waters than Freddie Mercury who doesn't really convince me of anything other than he has a lot of range

[run2pee]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

MarkESmith wrote something about being prideful that he didn't write a single love song in his 100 albums

He said there were just too many other more interesting things to talk about

I agree with this sentiment, especially if we're talking about the typical boy/girl romantic love topic. There's already sooooooooooooo many songs exulting heterosexual union as the Big Answer of Life. I'd rather hear about nearly anything else

[Elphenor]

Fucking exactly

Another thing he writes about is subjecting yourself to art that's obsessed with heartbreak is counter productive to recovering from it. You need to learn to occupy your brain with the larger picture its therapy to THINK

[run2pee]

Originally Posted by soniclovenoize

Here's a lyric from a song I wrote that will be on the next Curiously Strong Peppermints album which is about 75% done. It's a song about songwriting, about me second-guessing the nature of the aforementioned process and if everything I've just said is complete bullshit!

A somber autumn’s slumber just to fade my fears to rest
Worries never falter, I can only lull myself
I cannot escape this shadow’s fee
The counterfeit calliope cultivating time
Fall into catch 22 and topple down this rhyme
I can eat my words and I’ll be free

When I’m left to my own devices
I succumb to my oldest vices
Swimming in this sea of ice

An onamonopea to express my state of mind
All the vowels violate and fight their way outside
Why can’t I just find the words to say?
The consonants have crumbled and I can’t escape the crash
Carnage in the castle, now I’m sifting through the ash
Haunted by the thoughts I’ve put away

When I’m left to my own devices
I succumb to my oldest vices
Swimming in this sea of ice

I tend to stay away from the "man it's hard to find the words" lyrics cause, well, I have that feeling every single time I attempt to write lyrics, so it'd be too easy to just say it in every song. But this strikes me as an entire song about the therapy/agony of writing music, which is cool

Calliope is a great word too. I used it in a song about my last band ending/the mystery of free time

We spent like six years in basements
I bothered guitars and u bought a drum kit
Had us a ball god I'm sure it was nothing less
Meanwhile father clock shoves us all toward his towering desk

The mystery of all that shining free time
I thought my heart would burst with longing
Searching amidst the ash - build me a pantheon
For that trash

Brand new you claims old you's backpack
Of bastard "hi theres" and never coming backs
Weight of the ages or just one crumb of sand

Realize the tree limbs pump dinosaur blood
Went hunting for the kid ghosts on empty playgrounds
After the bored-sick sun's gone down and onto other towns
Weary ice cream man shuts down his calliope

The mystery of free time

[teh b0lly!!1]

what's a "ball god"?

i really dig those lyrics. some angular imagery and nice way of going about your way of saying things. except the last verse, if i'm being honest - because i found it a little contrived and cliche after the rest of the song flows so well