Zeitgeist > Siamese Dream, Gish

Grant V · 08-18-2009, 07:54 AM

Here’s my claim about Zeitgeist: Better than Siamese Dream or Gish.

Here’s my bold follow-up: Almost any musicologist would agree with my viewpoint. (i.e. if we look at the actual compositions… the novelty of the harmonies, the skillful use of counterpoint, the way the songs take a theme and develop it, or take two themes and integrate them, etc.)

If we look past little sticking points like whether a certain B-side should have made the cut, or whether the vocals are mixed a little too loud, I think it’s clear that Zietgeist shows a world-class composer on top of his game.

Why did I compare Siamese Dream unfavorably? I think Siamese Dream is a sort of “early Zeitgeist” - it’s simpler in general (i.e. the song structures, the fact that “Soma” is only three chords + a middle 8 riff). Sure, some songs like “Geek USA” are masterpieces, but Zeitgeist shows a similar (if more subtly expressed) ability to take themes and live with them, to really develop them. Most of the songs on the album border on being through-composed. Another song that strikes me as a characteristic “early work” - “Silverfuck”. Sure, it’s long, but it’s repetitive and it takes a long time getting there. It’s a bit reliant on gimmicks like the spoken-word introduction or the reverse echo effect to hold one’s interest. Something “poppy” on Zeitgeist like “That’s the Way” achieves just as many breakthrough moments in far less time - i.e. it is the work of a more mature writer (not a “tired old man”!)

The songs on Gish are very knotty and take alot of strange turns, but I’m just not sold that the raw material of the harmonies, riffs, melody lines (and texture ideas) are as compelling as what is on Zeitgeist.

Cool As Ice Cream · 08-18-2009, 08:02 AM

thanks for letting us know.

Mo · 08-18-2009, 08:10 AM

Caine Walker · 08-18-2009, 08:19 AM

pale blue eyes · 08-18-2009, 08:24 AM

No. Just...no.

thomas_bland · 08-18-2009, 08:25 AM

Grant V = Mad

duovamp · 08-18-2009, 09:26 AM

Zeitgeist is the best album ever recorded.

OwenWilsonsNose · 08-18-2009, 09:51 AM

You know, I actually like zeitgeist, but I saw the title of the thread and immediately knew it was a cry for help. Call 1-800-DONT-JUMP.

RenewRevive · 08-18-2009, 10:10 AM

quite preposterous.

so, i guess corgan professor'd all the music out of zeitgeist; glad he knew so little back in '93!

KManXC · 08-18-2009, 12:38 PM

I thought C_Wilson was banned?

slunken · 08-18-2009, 12:57 PM

I've read this somewhere else...

slunken · 08-18-2009, 12:57 PM

A long time ago...

brutechinasky · 08-18-2009, 12:57 PM

yeah, and my dick is bigger than john holmes'

suncrashesdown · 08-18-2009, 01:11 PM

false, but fun to pretend

Panthalassa · 08-18-2009, 06:08 PM

...Oops, I Did It Again > Machina. Any Capitalist would agree with my viewpoint.

redbull · 08-18-2009, 06:18 PM

someone really needs to ban c_wilson's ip range

Gossamer · 08-18-2009, 06:22 PM

lol no, just no

Trotskilicious · 08-18-2009, 06:24 PM

haha "musicologist" what the shit

exactlythesame · 08-18-2009, 10:58 PM

the only thing a musicologist would agree with is that zeitgeist is a digitally produced turd that underwhelms to the point of almost total disinterest

reprise85 · 08-18-2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant V

Here’s my claim about Zeitgeist: Better than Siamese Dream or Gish.

Here’s my bold follow-up: Almost any musicologist would agree with my viewpoint. (i.e. if we look at the actual compositions… the novelty of the harmonies, the skillful use of counterpoint, the way the songs take a theme and develop it, or take two themes and integrate them, etc.)

If we look past little sticking points like whether a certain B-side should have made the cut, or whether the vocals are mixed a little too loud, I think it’s clear that Zietgeist shows a world-class composer on top of his game.

Why did I compare Siamese Dream unfavorably? I think Siamese Dream is a sort of “early Zeitgeist” - it’s simpler in general (i.e. the song structures, the fact that “Soma” is only three chords + a middle 8 riff). Sure, some songs like “Geek USA” are masterpieces, but Zeitgeist shows a similar (if more subtly expressed) ability to take themes and live with them, to really develop them. Most of the songs on the album border on being through-composed. Another song that strikes me as a characteristic “early work” - “Silverfuck”. Sure, it’s long, but it’s repetitive and it takes a long time getting there. It’s a bit reliant on gimmicks like the spoken-word introduction or the reverse echo effect to hold one’s interest. Something “poppy” on Zeitgeist like “That’s the Way” achieves just as many breakthrough moments in far less time - i.e. it is the work of a more mature writer (not a “tired old man”!)

The songs on Gish are very knotty and take alot of strange turns, but I’m just not sold that the raw material of the harmonies, riffs, melody lines (and texture ideas) are as compelling as what is on Zeitgeist.

There is something that Zeitgeist lacks and that is irreplaceable - emotion. I don't care if musically Corgan is some super composer now as opposed to then (which he obviously isn't).

Not sure why I am responding to this obvious troll but whatever

vaccine · 08-18-2009, 11:06 PM

zeitgeist sux tho lol

Gish08 · 08-18-2009, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant V

Here’s my bold follow-up: Almost any musicologist would agree with my viewpoint. (i.e. if we look at the actual compositions… the novelty of the harmonies, the skillful use of counterpoint, the way the songs take a theme and develop it, or take two themes and integrate them, etc.)

Also don't forget the complete lack of dynamics. Plus, vocals that were are improperly mixed are so cool.

sh sh shayne · 08-18-2009, 11:51 PM

I'm going to send this to fail blog.

pyrocus · 08-19-2009, 09:39 PM

You have got to be fucking kidding me with this bullshit. Are you actually telling me that the compositions on Zeitgeist are more complex and well thought out than the songs on Siamese Dream? Gish?

Rhinoceros?
Soma?
Hummer?
Snail?
Suffer?
Quiet?

pale_princess · 08-19-2009, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panthalassa

...Oops, I Did It Again > Machina. Any Capitalist would agree with my viewpoint.

i wouldn't go that far, but i would go as far as in the zone > machina. but it's cpt obvious to say the entire britney spears catalog >>> zeitgeist, easily.

Ol' Couch Ass · 08-19-2009, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant V

Here’s my claim about Zeitgeist: Better than Siamese Dream or Gish.

Here’s my bold follow-up: Almost any musicologist would agree with my viewpoint. (i.e. if we look at the actual compositions… the novelty of the harmonies, the skillful use of counterpoint, the way the songs take a theme and develop it, or take two themes and integrate them, etc.)

If we look past little sticking points like whether a certain B-side should have made the cut, or whether the vocals are mixed a little too loud, I think it’s clear that Zietgeist shows a world-class composer on top of his game.

Why did I compare Siamese Dream unfavorably? I think Siamese Dream is a sort of “early Zeitgeist” - it’s simpler in general (i.e. the song structures, the fact that “Soma” is only three chords + a middle 8 riff). Sure, some songs like “Geek USA” are masterpieces, but Zeitgeist shows a similar (if more subtly expressed) ability to take themes and live with them, to really develop them. Most of the songs on the album border on being through-composed. Another song that strikes me as a characteristic “early work” - “Silverfuck”. Sure, it’s long, but it’s repetitive and it takes a long time getting there. It’s a bit reliant on gimmicks like the spoken-word introduction or the reverse echo effect to hold one’s interest. Something “poppy” on Zeitgeist like “That’s the Way” achieves just as many breakthrough moments in far less time - i.e. it is the work of a more mature writer (not a “tired old man”!)

The songs on Gish are very knotty and take alot of strange turns, but I’m just not sold that the raw material of the harmonies, riffs, melody lines (and texture ideas) are as compelling as what is on Zeitgeist.

http://forums.netphoria.org/customav...atar4022_6.gif .

Ol' Couch Ass · 08-20-2009, 01:10 AM

Dude I really can't help but read that original post in Patrick Bateman's voice.

srt4b · 08-20-2009, 01:24 AM

fukkin Amish Rake Fighters

don't they have to make 17 posts before they can start threads?

redbull · 08-20-2009, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ol' Couch Ass

Dude I really can't help but read that original post in Patrick Bateman's voice.

do ya like huey lewis and the news?

Ol' Couch Ass · 08-20-2009, 01:53 AM

Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes, but when Sports came out in '83, I think they really came into their own, commercial and artistically. The whole album has a clear, crisp sound, and a new sheen of consummate professionalism that really gives the songs a big boost. He's been compared to Elvis Costello, but I think Huey has a far much more bitter, cynical sense of humour.

08-18-2009, 07:54 AM	#1
Grant V Pledge Posts: 55	Zeitgeist > Siamese Dream, Gish Here’s my claim about Zeitgeist: Better than Siamese Dream or Gish. Here’s my bold follow-up: Almost any musicologist would agree with my viewpoint. (i.e. if we look at the actual compositions… the novelty of the harmonies, the skillful use of counterpoint, the way the songs take a theme and develop it, or take two themes and integrate them, etc.) If we look past little sticking points like whether a certain B-side should have made the cut, or whether the vocals are mixed a little too loud, I think it’s clear that Zietgeist shows a world-class composer on top of his game. Why did I compare Siamese Dream unfavorably? I think Siamese Dream is a sort of “early Zeitgeist” - it’s simpler in general (i.e. the song structures, the fact that “Soma” is only three chords + a middle 8 riff). Sure, some songs like “Geek USA” are masterpieces, but Zeitgeist shows a similar (if more subtly expressed) ability to take themes and live with them, to really develop them. Most of the songs on the album border on being through-composed. Another song that strikes me as a characteristic “early work” - “Silverfuck”. Sure, it’s long, but it’s repetitive and it takes a long time getting there. It’s a bit reliant on gimmicks like the spoken-word introduction or the reverse echo effect to hold one’s interest. Something “poppy” on Zeitgeist like “That’s the Way” achieves just as many breakthrough moments in far less time - i.e. it is the work of a more mature writer (not a “tired old man”!) The songs on Gish are very knotty and take alot of strange turns, but I’m just not sold that the raw material of the harmonies, riffs, melody lines (and texture ideas) are as compelling as what is on Zeitgeist.

08-18-2009, 08:10 AM	#3
Mo Immortal Posts: 20,964	LOL.

08-18-2009, 12:38 PM	#10
KManXC Ownz Location: Charlottesville, VA Posts: 575	I thought C_Wilson was banned? __________________ Chances are excellent I don't like you

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08-18-2009, 08:02 AM	#2
Cool As Ice Cream Just Hook it to My Veins! Location: František! How's the foot of your turtle? Posts: 32,743	thanks for letting us know.

08-18-2009, 08:19 AM	#4
Caine Walker Braindead Posts: 15,482	http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif

08-18-2009, 08:24 AM	#5
pale blue eyes NOPE. Location: :/ Posts: 15,108	No. Just...no.

08-18-2009, 08:25 AM	#6
thomas_bland Ownz Location: the diaspora Posts: 669	Grant V = Mad

08-18-2009, 09:26 AM	#7
duovamp Brazilian Blouselord Location: heavy metal pool party Posts: 35,781	Zeitgeist is the best album ever recorded.

08-18-2009, 09:51 AM	#8
OwenWilsonsNose Demi-God Location: Georgia Posts: 398	You know, I actually like zeitgeist, but I saw the title of the thread and immediately knew it was a cry for help. Call 1-800-DONT-JUMP.

08-18-2009, 10:10 AM	#9
RenewRevive Minion of Satan Location: Welcome to the real world jackass Posts: 5,056	quite preposterous. so, i guess corgan professor'd all the music out of zeitgeist; glad he knew so little back in '93!

08-18-2009, 12:57 PM	#11
slunken Virgo Posts: 42,781	I've read this somewhere else...

08-18-2009, 12:57 PM	#13
brutechinasky Demi-God Posts: 487	yeah, and my dick is bigger than john holmes'

08-18-2009, 01:11 PM	#14
suncrashesdown Apocalyptic Poster Posts: 1,785	false, but fun to pretend

08-18-2009, 06:08 PM	#15
Panthalassa Pledge Location: IL Posts: 162	...Oops, I Did It Again > Machina. Any Capitalist would agree with my viewpoint.

08-18-2009, 06:18 PM	#16
redbull Immortal Location: like liutenant dan i'm rollin' Posts: 21,016	someone really needs to ban c_wilson's ip range

08-18-2009, 06:22 PM	#17
Gossamer Apocalyptic Poster Location: We got it like three quarters of the way in whilst on vacation last week. Minor success. Unfortunately she is leaving for England in a couple of days. Posts: 3,832	lol no, just no

08-18-2009, 06:24 PM	#18
Trotskilicious Banned Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship. Posts: 39,439	haha "musicologist" what the shit

08-18-2009, 10:58 PM	#19
exactlythesame Minion of Satan Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes Posts: 7,676	the only thing a musicologist would agree with is that zeitgeist is a digitally produced turd that underwhelms to the point of almost total disinterest

08-18-2009, 11:06 PM	#21
vaccine Pledge Posts: 73	zeitgeist sux tho lol

08-18-2009, 11:51 PM	#23
sh sh shayne Ownz Posts: 919	I'm going to send this to fail blog.

08-19-2009, 09:39 PM	#24
pyrocus Demi-God Location: Washington, DC Posts: 380	You have got to be fucking kidding me with this bullshit. Are you actually telling me that the compositions on Zeitgeist are more complex and well thought out than the songs on Siamese Dream? Gish? Rhinoceros? Soma? Hummer? Snail? Suffer? Quiet?

08-20-2009, 01:10 AM	#27
Ol' Couch Ass Socialphobic Location: The Filthy South Posts: 11,300	Dude I really can't help but read that original post in Patrick Bateman's voice.

08-20-2009, 01:24 AM	#28
srt4b Apocalyptic Poster Posts: 1,098	fukkin Amish Rake Fighters don't they have to make 17 posts before they can start threads?

08-20-2009, 01:53 AM	#30
Ol' Couch Ass Socialphobic Location: The Filthy South Posts: 11,300	Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes, but when Sports came out in '83, I think they really came into their own, commercial and artistically. The whole album has a clear, crisp sound, and a new sheen of consummate professionalism that really gives the songs a big boost. He's been compared to Elvis Costello, but I think Huey has a far much more bitter, cynical sense of humour.