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Old 01-18-2018, 09:54 AM   #1
T&T
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Default When's billy gonna give up

Seeing Jeff in the studio is a clear indicator that the next album is gonna be another flop.

When is billy just gonna pack it up and give up with the music?

I wish it was in 2000, but I'll accept 2018.

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:09 AM   #2
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funny to see the biggest fans become the biggest haters. myself included. perhaps we expected too much from billy.

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:06 PM   #3
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funny to see the biggest fans become the biggest haters. myself included. perhaps we expected too much from billy.
Netphoria in a nutshell. We got too attached. Then letdown.

Thank god I have this one band from Tokyo that never disappoints!

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:15 AM   #4
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I don't like or listen to his new material, but I don't personally hope he gives up doing whatever the fuck he gets fulfillment doing just because it doesn't appeal to me.

I mean, it's not like I'm forced to listen to it or anything.

 
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Old 01-19-2018, 09:11 PM   #5
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I don't like or listen to his new material, but I don't personally hope he gives up doing whatever the fuck he gets fulfillment doing just because it doesn't appeal to me.

I mean, it's not like I'm forced to listen to it or anything.
if there is a Hell, it would be eternity with Ogilala on repeat.

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:36 AM   #6
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I've thought about making this thread recently. Everything he has done this last decade has been completely backwards. Nothing feels like a band and none of it feels truly finished. This is something that has gotten worse as time has gone on. He really is a genius in need of an editor. I think he is still capable of writing good material. Oceania had a lot of potential, but the drumming (Byrne/samples/production), lack of fully realized sonic conclusions and those god-awful keyboard tones ruin it. That's something that has plagued Billy for ten years now and they were outdated when he started Teargarden. I can’t say I have zero interest because even though I know it will suck (even a full reunion/too many negative factors) but I still want to see what happens. It’s more “gawk at the car wreck” than any type of legitimate enjoyment or emotional investment. My biggest gripe is that I can still hear brilliance in him. His execution has just been so terrible that he’s unredeemable now.

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 02:55 PM   #7
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I've thought about making this thread recently. Everything he has done this last decade has been completely backwards. Nothing feels like a band and none of it feels truly finished. This is something that has gotten worse as time has gone on. He really is a genius in need of an editor. I think he is still capable of writing good material. Oceania had a lot of potential, but the drumming (Byrne/samples/production), lack of fully realized sonic conclusions and those god-awful keyboard tones ruin it. That's something that has plagued Billy for ten years now and they were outdated when he started Teargarden. I can’t say I have zero interest because even though I know it will suck (even a full reunion/too many negative factors) but I still want to see what happens. It’s more “gawk at the car wreck” than any type of legitimate enjoyment or emotional investment. My biggest gripe is that I can still hear brilliance in him. His execution has just been so terrible that he’s unredeemable now.
Yeah, the glimmers of potential are especially maddening.

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 10:49 AM   #8
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Just distance yourself from Bill and his work. Go in with no expectations rather than repeatedly checking for updates while telling yourself it's going to suck for two years before you arrive at a foregone conclusion.

I don't see Jeff's presence in the studio as any kind of indicator of quality, better or worse, because he IS the hired gun people like to make James and D'Arcy out to be.

Anyway, I don't think anybody hereabouts could accurately describe what they would estimate to be a "good" SP album in this day and age, knows what it would entail, and certainly wouldn't agree with anyone else on said criteria.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:29 PM   #9
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Anyway, I don't think anybody hereabouts could accurately describe what they would estimate to be a "good" SP album in this day and age, knows what it would entail, and certainly wouldn't agree with anyone else on said criteria.
Hi.

I'm new. And I didn't read this whole thread. So sorry if I missed something or am echoing something.

I was on a Smashing Pumpkins message board about 12 years ago and was rather active during the restart with Zeitgeist, which as the most disappointing moment in music history according to me. After that, I stopped paying attention to SP updates and I eventually just moved on, musically to following indie bands until I wound up somewhere between "Of Montreal" and Mongolian throat music (literally... that's no the name of a band).

But recently, I picked up Melon Collie and the Infinite Sadness again, and instantly knew what made that album great (for me).

It was the guitars.

Corgan is a crappy lyricist. Most overdramatic, teenagery nonsense full of words that I'm pretty sure he didn't even give a brain cell's time to before stringing them together.

But he's a decent guitarist. I love his solos, and more importantly, I LOVED the sound of his guitars in Melon Collie (before he went all electronica and murdered every sound wave with overproduction).

Now, I don't know crap about guitars (acoustic or electric), but there are a few particular guitar sounds that stand out to me and make me love a song. One of them is in "Disaster Tourism" by mewithoutYou (the second guitar, not the first. I like the one that echos and screeches like a fanged cat). ...And another is in this album. It's a very full-bodied guitar. It's not as rough as his earlier sounds and not as warped as what comes after. It's warm and filling. That sound makes me fall in love.

After hearing it again, I dug up Zeitgeist out of the bottom of a drawer to see if I just missed something in it. I played through the first 10 seconds of Doomsday Clock (somehow he got more melodramatic and teenagery with time). The guitar sound was hollow. I didn't like it at all. And his vocals were not well mixed with it. It made me appreciate how well balanced the production of Melon Collie was. The sound quality and mixing was just better.

Anyway, all of that was to answer your statement about what a "good" SP album sounds like. Melon Collie was the height of their career for more than just publicity. It was actually a really well done album... in every way except lyrically. Lyrically, Corgan just sucks, and I accept that.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 05:14 PM   #10
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Anyway, all of that was to answer your statement about what a "good" SP album sounds like.
See, you can tell me that "guitars make a good SP album" and while I'd generally agree they're a major part of what we consider a good SP album to be - it's not an absolute, especially when I refer to 'this day and age'. You've got people out there that like the more techno-oriented or danceable songs; It's still weird to me that nowadays more people seem to like TBITEITB than TEITBITE. I wouldn't call Adore a guitar-focused album for the most part, but I love it. Some folks like Dorian. My point would be nobody can agree on what makes SP good a lot of the time, and that's nothing new. I don't think there's been much of a consensus since Adore came out and Bill branched out his sound.

What made SP tops for me during their heyday was Bill's ability to craft imagery and his aim to provoke emotion through sound, and that was through a combination of expressive lyrics, good or interesting production choices, and a wide variety of instrumental choices. 1979 sounds nostalgic the first time you hear it. In The Arms of Sleep evokes late nights, ticking clocks, longing. Bill wrote Disarm specifically with the intent of creating something heartbreaking and beautiful to hurt people who hurt him, and it worked.

See, I think the opposite about his lyrics, or I once did. I think Corgan USED to be a good lyricist - a lot of his lyrics leaned on the juvenile side because oftentimes he was trying to illustrate childhood feelings through the lens of young adulthood, and he was really, really good at that. He's been awful in recent years because his lyrics have devolved into overwrought poetry with little prose, he's been on autopilot, and he's older and might be struggling for something to say at all.

And right about now is when someone shows up and says that they love SP mainly because Jimmy's one badass motherfucker of a drummer. No consensus, I say.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 05:29 PM   #11
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You said you didn't think anyone could say what they think made a good SP album. I answered with what I thought made one. I wasn't intending to speak for anyone else. Of course you'll never get a consensus on anything. Welcome to humanity. We can't even agree on facts.

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What made SP tops for me during their heyday was Bill's ability to craft imagery and his aim to provoke emotion through sound, and that was through a combination of expressive lyrics, good or interesting production choices, and a wide variety of instrumental choices. 1979 sounds nostalgic the first time you hear it. In The Arms of Sleep evokes late nights, ticking clocks, longing. Bill wrote Disarm specifically with the intent of creating something heartbreaking and beautiful to hurt people who hurt him, and it worked.
What you described here was mostly sound-related, not lyric related. The echo and hum of 1979 was definitely a great touch and the fact that he focused on a nameless group of people without singling himself out made it much more relatable.

I stand by my view on his lyrics, though. Even Disarm...

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 06:06 PM   #12
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To add to the above, I said "anyone hereabouts" and "in this day and age" - on Netphoria - where that variety of opinion is commonplace and there's a history of tearing to shreds much of what Bill sends down the pike. My statement refers to the not-entirely-undeserved cynicism on Netphoria that greets a lot of Bill's work. If guitars that sound like the old days on a new album would be what works for you, that's fine, but that's not representative of the history of this place.

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What you described here was mostly sound-related, not lyric related.
No. 1979's nostalgic qualities start with its title and pervade every single lyric. The title being a year immediately grounds it in the past, and the song refers to kids of that time - by this point grown, who were free to live in the moment, "not caring where their bones will rest". It reflects on the past experience of being wild and crazy kids and the music video reflects that. "Justine never knew the rules", etc.

And, I mean:

"Peace will not come to this tired body now, sleep will not come to this lonely heart"

Like I said, lyrically evocative of sleeplessness and longing. But if you've always disliked his lyrics I don't know what to tell you.

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 11:28 AM   #13
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I'm not saying "be optimistic" because the last ten years haven't given much of any reason to be, but having Jimmy and James present has to count for something.

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 11:45 AM   #14
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Old 01-18-2018, 11:42 AM   #15
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I get where you are coming from but I do this with other bands (endless following of social media) and they rarely disappoint me like Billy/Pumpkins.

I heavily dislike Jeff as a guitarist. He is technically proficient but his lack of character is undeniable. Every concert I went to he just clashed so hard with Billy’s style. I don’t care for James’ playing all that much either, though. Seeing Jeff there contributing to whatever this is, is a bad sign for me. Him being a hired gun is one of the other big problems. Jeff doesn’t challenge Billy, but I guess you could argue that Billy is beyond being challengeable at this point. That is the main reason he will never have another real band. He can do no wrong in his eyes, I mean he though Run2Me was releasable.

Obviously, everyone will have their own opinions but I believe we can agree that having Jimmy onboard, a good bassist, a real producer, fully realized songs, absolutely no keyboards would be one hell of a start.

Please just give me the MASCHINA reissue.

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 12:13 PM   #16
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I think there's a chance Billy actually might be a bit more open to being challenged nowadays - he might be in a space where he might feel he needs band validation to continue with the SP name.

Because I think MTAE failing as hard as it did fucked him up way way worse than anyone realized. Not only did he gain a shit ton of weight like he did after Gish, he basically started through stages of grief. Denial, anger, "nobody believes I made a three star record". You could call what's been happening since the Plainsong tour and currently bargaining and acceptance.

When you look at the shit ton of songs he wrote in 1998-2000 about his band falling apart and ending - more than a handful - it's obvious his music is something that means a lot to him. I think he finally realized he ran the SP name into the ground when MTAE failed to make any kind of impression whatsoever and it broke him for a while, hence wilderness years of synth experiments because he had no idea what else to do and just needed to try something different.

Yeah, I don't think he's ever going to hang it up or that he'd know how to.

I'd really like to think D'Arcy's present via Skype calls or whathaveyou and she's offering input even if she's not with them in the studio. She'd probably go "fuck it, what do you need me for, you can perform the bass parts".

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:03 PM   #17
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Putting the blame on Jeff is ridiculous. If it sucks it's because Billy's lost the heartfires. No amount of Jimmy Jamez or even Darcy contributing will change that.

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:17 PM   #18
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Putting the blame on Jeff is ridiculous. If it sucks it's because Billy's lost the heartfires. No amount of Jimmy Jamez or even Darcy contributing will change that.
yes
why is jeff a problem or an indication of a problem?

three guitarists would be fine...

 
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Old 01-19-2018, 11:54 PM   #19
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MonteLDS @MonteLDS Jan 17
wonder if something will happen at Sundance Film Festival...

Replying to @MonteLDS Hmmm. A reunion of sorts??

Replying to @StephenLennon2 @MonteLDS Guessing he's just referring to this: "The clip serves as a 2D preview of a forthcoming immersive virtual reality experience for the Ogilala disc...created inside a 3D world that was imagined by...Danny Bittman...Look for the VR experience being made available...in early 2018. ·

MonteLDS @MonteLDS Replying to @ClayTuckett @StephenLennon2 bingo was his name o

 
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Old 01-20-2018, 11:41 AM   #20
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yes
why is jeff a problem or an indication of a problem?

three guitarists would be fine...
Jeff is hopelessly boring, no charisma on stage at all, and his playing is as generic and plain as can be. He doesn't play to compliment the songs, his "shredding" is awful, and he literally brings nothing of value to the band. I've had the misfortune of seeing them live with Jeff three times. I couldn't believe that Jeff's guitar was louder than Billy's each time. Not what I paid to hear.

 
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Old 01-20-2018, 05:42 PM   #21
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Jeff is hopelessly boring, no charisma on stage at all, and his playing is as generic and plain as can be. He doesn't play to compliment the songs, his "shredding" is awful, and he literally brings nothing of value to the band. I've had the misfortune of seeing them live with Jeff three times. I couldn't believe that Jeff's guitar was louder than Billy's each time. Not what I paid to hear.

I would agree to some extent that his playing lacks an original voice when playing in the pumpkins but I think that's on purpose. Ive always perceived him as strictly a sideman in the Pumpkins... like Kenny Aronoff or Matt Walker or Lisa Harrington or whoever else. If had his own voice too much, he would be failing at his job.

I actually like Jeff in the band because he performs at a professional level consistently every night (unlike Billy lol.) I.e., his playing is always in tune and in time, he hardly ever makes mistakes, his sound and feel are always good. It's refreshing! Haha

Seeing Jeff and Billy play acoustic duos together during the Plainsong tour really made this extra obvious to me. I remember watching Billy play his intro solo to Mayonaise and Jeff had to keep readjusting his time feel to match Billy's constant rushing. It was kind of painful. In my opinion, it's kind of obvious Billy is self taught and has probably never really like...worked with a metronome...whereas Jeff really has it together. Billy would never survive as a guitarist in a professional band. He's way too sloppy. Jeff could probably play with anyone and I'm willing to bet has his own style too.

Just my two cents though.

I love you Billy!

 
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Old 01-20-2018, 05:49 PM   #22
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Clusterfuck hammer-on/pull-off solos pwn.

That's my two cents.

 
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Old 01-20-2018, 05:56 PM   #23
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Clusterfuck hammer-on/pull-off solos pwn.

That's my two cents.
Haha. Fair enough. I prefer them to be in time, and articulate in terms of note content. But that's just me.

 
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Old 01-20-2018, 05:20 AM   #24
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Putting the blame on Jeff is ridiculous. If it sucks it's because Billy's lost the heartfires. No amount of Jimmy Jamez or even Darcy contributing will change that.
Personally, I blame Obamacare.

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:09 PM   #25
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don't tell me don't tell me don't tell me... Yellow Light Orchestra?

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:30 PM   #26
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MTAE failed to make any kind of impression whatsoever
it made an impression, that billy has some of the worst taste when left to his own devices.

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:34 PM   #27
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it made an impression, that billy has some of the worst taste when left to his own devices.
HOWARD WILLING and JEFF SCHROEDER were co-producers...

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:36 PM   #28
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HOWARD WILLING and JEFF SCHROEDER were co-producers...
I think wheat paste was also one of the co-producers

the fucking idiot's lead single was called "being beige". Seriously? he's in a rock band and he thinks being bland is a viable option? Bland doesn't even cut it for tommy-lee dad rock. All the drugs have really turned on him. poor billy.

 
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Old 01-18-2018, 01:50 PM   #29
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BILLY should make a song about "Being Bald"...


 
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Old 01-18-2018, 02:13 PM   #30
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We brought this up in another thread but Billy just takes the sucking to a whole new level. Imagine Black Sabbath making bad happy acoustic guitar music in their post-successful career. Billy was a ferocious guitar monster during the era of guitar revival. He was Zero, he was Glass, hell he was still Billy. Why can't he just stop at putting out shitty songs? Why does he have to make shitty anemic circus sounding music? Some of his SP2 material makes Queen look like Doom Metal.

 
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