Christians and Pumpkins

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

Well then, I'll leave you to believe that. But just as I urged Aeroplane, don't close your mind off to any ideas. You still have many things to experience.

I've never closed my mind off. I've travelled all over the world (and at time, did it with a Christian missionary family) and am old enough to know who I am and what I believe in. I'm more than twice some of your guys' age. Because it's not what you believe in doesn't mean I'm closed off. I can say the same of you when you keep referring to the Bible to support your belief IN the Bible. I can say it's faulty logic, but I won't. You can't prove a lot of what it is you believe in because it's FAITH. And I know that faith very well. I harbour no ill-will against it, but I've studied it and know it very well, and it might be hard for you to understand, but I still don't believe in it or believe it's correct. That's just the way it is.

[i_adore_adore]

Well then, I'll leave you to believe that.

I'll probably change my mind in ten years. But thass okay. hahahaha

Maybe it all just ends, and there's nothing. That wouldn't be so nice. But maybe that's what happens.

I personally love the idea of reincarnation... I played around with Buddhism for a while... from age 14-15, and I still take a lot of their beliefs to heart. When I was 13 I got rid of all religion because I was just a very unhappy girl, and my brain shifted to negative "logic" (though I agree that there is much logic to be found in religion). Then when I got happy again (14), I started questioning Christianity (mostly because of my best friend being a church-goer who doesn't follow her precious rules) and then turned to Buddhism after a dream I had about it (stupid, I know). It turned out to be a real learning experience.

After I realized that faith doesn't come when you ask it to--that you have to truly believe in something for it to be real faith--I set aside the title of Buddhism as well. Now I've made up my own religion based on mostly Christianity with some Buddhism thrown in there. I read a book once called Living Buddha, Living Christ, and it really inspired me to form my own idea of what the "truth" is. And so I have.

My God doesn't hate rock and roll, gays, non-religious people, or anyone. He loves us all. And though many may argue that the Christian God doesn't hate those things, either, there are plenty more who would argue that he does.

In any case, I'm much happier now, and until I'm dead and gone and wherever I end up, I don't suppose I'll ever know if I was right in my current beliefs.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

I've never closed my mind off. I've travelled all over the world and am old enough to know who I am and what I believe in. Because it's not what you believe in doesn't mean I'm closed off. I can say the same of you when you keep referring to the Bible to support your belief IN the Bible. I can say it's faulty logic, but I won't. You can't prove a lot of what it is you believe in because it's FAITH. And I know that faith very well. I harbour no ill-will against it, but I've studied it and know it very well, and it might be hard for you to understand, but I still don't believe in it or believe it's correct. That's just the way it is.

Oh, sorry -- I wasn't meaning to imply you had closed your mind off or that you lacked experience. I said that to Adore cause I know she's young (younger than me, anyway.)

Faith is not something someone can feel, taste, touch, smell, or see, as you pointed out. It's something altogether different, and it takes personal experience and yes, evidence to build that faith.

It's not my place to condemn you anymore than it's your place to condemn me, so I'll never resort to calling someone wrong.

This has been a much more civil conversation than some I've had (and I've had a lot.) I appreciate the calmness.

[Aeroplane]

Yeah, I never see the point in getting all upset when discussing faith because you can never prove anything in the end. That's why it's faith.

[i_adore_adore]

I just love discussing it. Religion in general, and the history that goes with it, has always fascinated me and I'm always trying to learn more from those who KNOW more. While this has been more of a faith-based discussion rather than the actual historical facts of a religion, it's still nice to discuss.

And anyway, we all have much to learn. Don't think that once you hit 30 you just stop and you hold the truth to all the universe

EDIT: exactlythesame, wasn't saying you were 30, just using it as an example

[Aeroplane]

so yeah, Chrisitians and Pumpkins . . .

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

I just love discussing it. Religion in general, and the history that goes with it, has always fascinated me and I'm always trying to learn more from those who KNOW more. While this has been more of a faith-based discussion rather than the actual historical facts of a religion, it's still nice to discuss.

And anyway, we all have much to learn. Don't think that once you hit 30 you just stop and you hold the truth to all the universe

EDIT: exactlythesame, wasn't saying you were 30, just using it as an example

You're pretty much screwed when you start to think you know everything.

[i_adore_adore]

Good thread.

[i_adore_adore]

You're pretty much screwed when you start to think you know everything.

TELL me about it...

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

TELL me about it...

From my current perspective, I was a jackass when I was 16.

Most teenagers really do think they've gained some sort of massive knowledge in through their short time on earth, and I can see why most adults are bothered by this type of attitude, because nothing could be farther from the truth.

[i_adore_adore]

And I can understand why teenagers get ticked off when they're not taken seriously just because of their age... because it happens to me all the time.

In all reality, I consider an "adult" to be... 25. 25 years isn't much time on this earth, either. Most people I've encountered in their twenties seem to think that they are the ones that hold the truth to the universe, not so much teenagers.

Not to say one age group is right or wrong. Judging based on age is altogether stupid. Treating each other as lesser beings based on how long we've been around is silly. I admit that I've got a lot to learn, but everyone does. Like I said, there's not a point in one's life when you just STOP gaining knowledge and experience.

And while a twenty-something has been around longer than I have, and have had more experiences in the "real world," I don't think that gives them the right to dismiss my opinions.

[EyesOfAJackal]

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

My personal truth is based on Christianity, but modified into my own way of thinking. Perhaps you don't believe in it.

But does that mean that I can't believe that other people's truths are true for them? Does that mean that I have to assume all the other religions of the world--religions older than Christianity--are false? If so, then I think that's ridiculous.

I have faith in one thing, but that doesn't mean I can't accept other people's faiths as truth FOR THEM.

I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding or if I'm just doing a bad job at explaining what I mean.

To be honest, I don't think what you mentioned is all that strange/unique. I feel like this is sort of the central philosophy of a lot of people I know who didn't grow up with certain strong beliefs and the sort of thing quite a few people reach on their own. It is called relativism, as you mentioned. It never appealed to me personally because I just saw it as a contradiction, to say there are multiple different truths- it seemed like making a statement of absolute truth to say that there are multiple truths. I like how you are so open to new ideas. Good discussion.

I am a Christian and my parents let me listen to the Pumpkins, just to put that out there

[i_adore_adore]

Yeah, I definitely don't think it's all too unique, either My friend and her family feel the same way, so that's nice to discuss with them. It's good to have someone so close that shares my beliefs.

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by *************

???

i was doom and gloom for awhile. i should've put a hyphen! but it's true, i look at early 20 year olds the same as teenagers. heh.

[EyesOfAJackal]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

i was doom and gloom for awhile. i should've put a hyphen! but it's true, i look at early 20 year olds the same as teenagers. heh.

I still feel like a teenager and I'm 22. Do you think that adolescence is expanding? I feel like when my dad grew up there weren't many "teenage" twenty-somethings... I could be wrong.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

And I can understand why teenagers get ticked off when they're not taken seriously just because of their age... because it happens to me all the time.

In all reality, I consider an "adult" to be... 25. 25 years isn't much time on this earth, either. Most people I've encountered in their twenties seem to think that they are the ones that hold the truth to the universe, not so much teenagers.

Not to say one age group is right or wrong. Judging based on age is altogether stupid. Treating each other as lesser beings based on how long we've been around is silly. I admit that I've got a lot to learn, but everyone does. Like I said, there's not a point in one's life when you just STOP gaining knowledge and experience.

And while a twenty-something has been around longer than I have, and have had more experiences in the "real world," I don't think that gives them the right to dismiss my opinions.

It certainly doesn't.

I guess it's just having respect for the experience people older than yourself have gained. It's something you just cannot have when you're a teenager.

But like you said, age doesn't dictate wisdom.

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by EyesOfAJackal

I still feel like a teenager and I'm 22. Do you think that adolescence is expanding? I feel like when my dad grew up there weren't many "teenage" twenty-somethings... I could be wrong.

no, it's about perspective. when my dad was my age, i thought he was so old. not now! same as looking at those who are younger - i think they're so young! in time, i'll think differently about those who are my age now. (however, 90% of my friends are at least 8-10 years older. one of my best friends who i hang out all the time with is 25 years older. so i'm kind of contradicting myself a bit here)

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

no, it's about perspective. when my dad was my age, i thought he was so old. not now! same as looking at those who are younger - i think they're so young! in time, i'll think differently about those who are my age now. (however, 90% of my friends are at least 8-10 years older. one of my best friends who i hang out all the time with is 25 years older. so i'm kind of contradicting myself a bit here)

I've found that the sooner one learns about perspective, the better off (s)he is.

[EyesOfAJackal]

Originally Posted by Aeroplane

no, it's about perspective. when my dad was my age, i thought he was so old. not now! same as looking at those who are younger - i think they're so young! in time, i'll think differently about those who are my age now. (however, 90% of my friends are at least 8-10 years older. one of my best friends who i hang out all the time with is 25 years older. so i'm kind of contradicting myself a bit here)

I think you're right. I also think something else may be at play though, which is what I was thinking... I feel like when my dad grew up everyone by their twenties had jobs or possibly some schooling left, and were usually married and well on their way to having kids. Now, I feel like people end up in academia forever, or sometimes mooch off their parents for a while, put off marriage till later, etc... theres still a lot of late-20 and 30s folks doing the whole "going out" college style thing, you know what I mean?

Just thoughts...

[<sp3]

WOW Great thread. So many things i want to reply too, but i will limit it.

Originally Posted by skipgo

man am i glad my parents weren't such extremists!
i went to church/sunday school every week, but it was never anything as intense and scary as all of that.
I think that's a surefire way to turn someone AGAINST religion. With my daughter, I'm teaching her about what I believe, but I'm certainly not trying to make her afraid, and I'm letting her figure out who she is on her own terms. (even if that means liking hannah montana at the moment)
i was pretty lucky in the parent department. They were good, solid people who taught me to think for myself, while still teaching me about God.

Sounds very similar to my childhood.

Originally Posted by Virex Kills

I LOVE hearing other people's stories and just...encouraging them to step out into what it means for them to be fully alive.

Long story short, was forced to go to church every week that i lived with my parents for the first 18 years of my life.. didnt like it.. didnt enjoy it.. wanted to get away from the church and i did when i went college. The problem for me, i think, was although the church my family went to was filled with very nice people, but they were all 80 year old dinosaurs who had absolutely no clue how to relate to me or anyone my age. So i forgot about god for 4 or 5 years. The last year or so, i have felt myself drift back to god in a very real way. Its almost like certain switches in my brain have been turned on, but almost for no reason, i fell back into the idea of god, and wanted god to become a bigger part of my life. I have never read the bible all the way thru in my life, and literally last week i picked it up and started reading to accomplish this. (i am a slow reader so it might take me a while! but ill get there..)

Originally Posted by i_adore_adore

And science can explain the existence of certain things.

oh boy, i could talk about this forever. I feel that it is science that made me prove gods existence, in my mind at least. I graduated with a mechanical engineering degree, and now work as a nuclear engineer for the department of defense. The more and more i learn about the intricacies of the inner workings of science, (nuclear physics and other extremely complicated things) the more i am completely blown away at how perfectly this universe has been put together. After learning a lot about what makes this world work, i can arrive at no other conclusion than the fact that it simply cannot be random. Things would not work this well were it not for a plan. I truly believe that it had to have been God that planned it all to work this way from the beginning.

Funny, because usually the more people learn about science, the more separated they are from god. For me it was the complete opposite.

Since i had this epiphany, i have started to notice other things, almost on a daily basis, that bring me closer to god. Some days i will get lost in the concept of how big the universe is, and how many stars there are. Others i will be completely mind-fucked when i think about the emotion of love, and how two otherwise inanimate objects (humans, made mostly of the same elements that rocks and cars are made out of) are capable of feeling affection for each other. A rock can't love another rock.. how did we evolve emotion? my brain cannot comprehend an answer.. it couldnt have happend randomly. There was a divine purpose and reason. (and i am not going to open up the evolution vs religion can of worms, all i am saying is that evolution or creation.. whatever it was.. god was behind it).

Just 3 days ago i looked up at the clouds, and was embarrassed by the fact that i started to tear up.. lost in the concept of how the clouds in the sky, and the colors at sundown are a canvas to which god creates beautiful artwork all day every day, and mostly goes un-noticed. The world is a beautiful place.

NOW TO BRING IT BACK TO THE POINT OF THIS THREAD


I have loved the smashing pumpkins since the very first time i heard them on the radio in 6th grade. They have been my favorite band since the time when i first realized that i loved music. Corgan's music is beautiful, and amazing. How lucky i am, i sometimes think to myself, that i was bourn into a world where music is possible. The science behind it, the properties of air that allow for sound waves to travel thru them. The natural harmonics that can be proven with math that they sound just right. We could have just as easily been bourn into a universe where music as we know it is impossible.


/ramble.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by caroline

Although I was always raised in a Christian environment, I had a conversion moment sort of like Virex (but I was 14 at the time) where I made the conscious decision to be a follower of Christ. It's not something that can be forced. God gave us all free will to choose Him or not. If someone asks me about my faith, I'll talk their ears off, but I don't go around proselytizing.

can i ask you about your faith? i have a good faith (no pun intended) interest in understanding faith in practice. in principle its belief without evidence, but in practice i suspect it takes modular form

[Aeroplane]

Originally Posted by EyesOfAJackal

I think you're right. I also think something else may be at play though, which is what I was thinking... I feel like when my dad grew up everyone by their twenties had jobs or possibly some schooling left, and were usually married and well on their way to having kids. Now, I feel like people end up in academia forever, or sometimes mooch off their parents for a while, put off marriage till later, etc... theres still a lot of late-20 and 30s folks doing the whole "going out" college style thing, you know what I mean?

Just thoughts...

I think there's a mixture of both types all the time. And yes, studies do show people wait longer now to get married, get more schooling, etc. Yet, my sister who is less than two years older than me got married at 20 and now has three kids and is still happily married and doing well.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by EyesOfAJackal

I think you're right. I also think something else may be at play though, which is what I was thinking... I feel like when my dad grew up everyone by their twenties had jobs or possibly some schooling left, and were usually married and well on their way to having kids. Now, I feel like people end up in academia forever, or sometimes mooch off their parents for a while, put off marriage till later, etc... theres still a lot of late-20 and 30s folks doing the whole "going out" college style thing, you know what I mean?

Just thoughts...

Lifestyles vary, as do expectations. There's no one "right" way to do things in that regard.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by caroline

I will just have to have faith that she will eventually believe. I am already praying for her daily. I can't push it on her, but it will sadden me if she doesn't. I think that's where a lot of Christian parents go wrong. It's as if they don't have faith in God or their kids to find Jesus out of his/her own choice. Did that make sense? I feel like I can't type or express myself today. lol!

id like to ask you if you have any problem whatsoever with, say, muslims or scientologists or raelians indoctrinating their children. do you? if so, what is it that bothers you about this?

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by

oh boy, i could talk about this forever. I feel that it is science that made me prove gods existence, in my mind at least. I graduated with a mechanical engineering degree, and now work as a nuclear engineer for the department of defense. The more and more i learn about the intricacies of the inner workings of science, (nuclear physics and other extremely complicated things) the more i am completely blown away at how perfectly this universe has been put together. After learning a lot about what makes this world work, i can arrive at no other conclusion than the fact that it simply cannot be random. Things would not work this well were it not for a plan. I truly believe that it had to have been God that planned it all to work this way from the beginning.

Funny, because usually the more people learn about science, the more separated they are from god. For me it was the complete opposite.

Since i had this epiphany, i have started to notice other things, almost on a daily basis, that bring me closer to god. Some days i will get lost in the concept of how big the universe is, and how many stars there are. Others i will be completely mind-fucked when i think about the emotion of love, and how two otherwise inanimate objects (humans, made mostly of the same elements that rocks and cars are made out of) are capable of feeling affection for each other. A rock can't love another rock.. how did we evolve emotion? my brain cannot comprehend an answer.. it couldnt have happend randomly. There was a divine purpose and reason. (and i am not going to open up the evolution vs religion can of worms, all i am saying is that evolution or creation.. whatever it was.. god was behind it).

Just 3 days ago i looked up at the clouds, and was embarrassed by the fact that i started to tear up.. lost in the concept of how the clouds in the sky, and the colors at sundown are a canvas to which god creates beautiful artwork all day every day, and mostly goes un-noticed. The world is a beautiful place.

This is the conclusion I came to based off of the same evidence, but without the college degree and the engineering.

Evolution doesn't make an awful lot of sense to me. You mean to tell me that DNA occurred by chance?

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by Siva-Man

Testimony time? Here's mine:

I grew up thinking I was a Christian. I didn't do drugs. I didn't drink. I didn't sleep around (except I secretly really wanted to). I didn't swear (except when no one was listening). I read my Bible regularly (except I didn't really like it). I thought I was a pretty righteous dude. But when I hit my 20s it all came crashing down.

I entered a period of doubt, extreme-fear, and depression and all my "sinlessness" did nothing to help me. I would lay awake late into the night fearing death. I was sure that I was going insane and that terrified me. (For example: one night I laid awake early into the morning fearing that my tongue was too big.) I was obsessed with sex and this caused massive guilt and I had no ability to shake either. I was hugely nostalgic: All I wanted was to be a little kid again. At this time, I was making close to six figures at my job. I owned my own home - a long ambition of mine. And I was (still am) married to a wonderful girl and we had two kids. These were all things I had dreamed about and none of them made me happy. The job and the house just stressed me out. The wife and the kids just made me sad because the kids were going to grow up and I or the wife were going to be separated by death someday. This went on for about two years.

In the midst of all this I got "saved". I now thank God for that horrible period of my life because in the midst of my depression and terror, my faith became real. Just reading a few verses from the Bible would bring me to tears because it spoke so directly to my state of decay. Church service was like a beacon of light at the end of each week - during the service I could feel the presence of Christ and it brought such peace. In those few hours I wasn't afraid of dying or the future. In that time I truly "found" Jesus.

Honestly, I think every person comes to Christ this way: Broken, terrified, guilt-ridden. Become a Christian isn't like climbing to the top of a mountain, it's like being rescued from a pit. Before I knew Christ, I had worked out my own religion that for all appearances looked like Christianity. But this religion was driving me to insanity instead of saving me. But when I finally came to Christ, desperate for a rescue from myself, wretched and afraid - well, it was literally like being born again. I had come through the birth canal and was blinking and alive in a new world. In the years, since then I feel like I've rediscovered the joy I had as a child - only it's greater.

Anyway, that's my story.

ive always wondered why christians (or those of other religions) proudly hold up the "you always come to god when youre weakest" idea. to me this seems like a serious point against religion. when people are desperate is when theyre most vulnerable and willing to accept any solution. the old canard "there are no atheists in foxholes" doesnt seem to me to say "when you strip away the superficial bullshit in life people see god," i hear it as "bring someone to the brink of death, tell them they can have eternal life of perfect bliss, and only the masochistic will opt against it."

i think i would be much more impressed if in the full light and clarity of the best thought and highest understanding people chose god. but, actually, the opposite seems to be the case. the most enlightened seem to be against religion, and the least educated and most poor are consistently more likely to be religious, across all cultures.

[exactlythesame]

Originally Posted by sleeper

ive always wondered why christians (or those of other religions) proudly hold up the "you always come to god when youre weakest" idea. to me this seems like a serious point against religion. when people are desperate is when theyre most vulnerable and willing to accept any solution. the old canard "there are no atheists in foxholes" doesnt seem to me to say "when you strip away the superficial bullshit in life people see god," i hear it as "bring someone to the brink of death, tell them they can have eternal life of perfect bliss, and only the masochistic will opt against it."

i think i would be much more impressed if in the full light and clarity of the best thought and highest understanding people chose god. but, actually, the opposite seems to be the case. the most enlightened seem to be against religion, and the least educated and most poor are consistently more likely to be religious, across all cultures.

"Enlightenment" is a wholly relative term, though.

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

The God of the Bible is consistent; the God most churches portray is not.

Hellfire isn't taught in the Bible, as waltermcphilip pointed out. God told Adam and Eve after they sinned "For dust you are, and to dust you will return," at Genesis 3:19.

For further proof of this, see Ezekiel 18:4 - "The soul that is sinning -- it itself will die." No immortal soul that burns in a fiery hell.

Another scripture that clarifies the meaning of the term "Sheol" or "Hades" (commonly translated as "hell"), Ecclesiastes 9:10 states: "All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going."

Consequently, Sheol / Hades refers to the common grave of mankind, and not a place of eternal torment.

In short, you're right in believing there's a contradiction between the loving nature of God and the doctrine of hellfire. "God is love," says 1 John 4:8.

EDIT: I usually refrain from speaking about religion on the internet, and will probably turn down any challenges by people who disagree with the Scriptures I quoted, but the subject was present, so I figured I'd add what I could.

this question on hell aside, the bible is more inconsistent with its depiction of god than any other single thing, i think. im no bible scholar but i read the bible and accompanying literature for the first time this summer, fully and fairly, and i was stunned at just how totally incoherent a picture the bible painted. everything was a mess and you could, i firmly believe, find support for most anything if you adopted the same lax intellectual standards (or same willingness to adopt different standards as one sees fit) that the religious do and have always done

[<sp3]

Originally Posted by exactlythesame

This is the conclusion I came to based off of the same evidence, but without the college degree and the engineering.

Evolution doesn't make an awful lot of sense to me. You mean to tell me that DNA occurred by chance?

it doesn't. Fundamental first thing you learn in chemistry 101 - everything always breaks down to its simplest, smallest energy state.

A fucking blade of grass.. let alone a human being is so mind boggle-ingly complex, there is absolutely no way i will believe it happened randomly.. coincidentally, or without reason. The means to get where we are today are debatable (evolution vs creation) but there is no doubt in my mind that god was the driving force that got us here.

But, i am not a biologist. I am a nuclear engineer. I would probably bore the hell out of you if i started talking about nuclear physics, but trust me... there are examples in that field equally as difficult to believe in happening randomly.

[<sp3]

Originally Posted by sleeper

ive always wondered why christians (or those of other religions) proudly hold up the "you always come to god when youre weakest" idea. to me this seems like a serious point against religion. when people are desperate is when theyre most vulnerable and willing to accept any solution.

i came to god during the best, happiest, and most successful years of my life (thus far)