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Old 12-17-2009, 02:28 PM   #1
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Default The Quality of Billy's Work

I remember someone saying something about how most good bands/musicians only have 2 or 3 great records in them, and it got me thinking about the overall quality of Billy's music. We pretty much got 6 CDs worth of undeniably great music, and all consecutively too:
1. Gish
2. Siamese Dream
3. Pisces Iscariot
4. Mellon Collie disc 1
5. Mellon Collie disc 2
6. Adore

I only cut it off at Adore because that's where public opinion splits. And if you take into consideration all the great songs spread across Machina, Machina II, the unreleased Zwan material, TFE, Zeitgeist, American Gothic, and the residency songs, most fans agree that there's another 2-3 CDs worth again. So essentially, we've gotten 9 or 10 great CDs worth of music out of Billy (so far).

With all of that said, I personally enjoy the "classic" Pumpkins more than current Pumpkins. I would have preferred Billy not resume using the SP name, but fuck it, it's his music. I'm happy as long as he's making more.

 
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:39 PM   #2
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pretty much every album billy has made is "good" outside of Mary Star and Zeitgeist, so he has a pretty solid track record.

i know hundreds of people are reading this going "b-b-b-but machina, TFE" but they were quality albums, just not everybody's cup of tea.

 
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:02 PM   #3
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It's all the shit that goes with it though. Sadly its not just the music we have to deal with but someone who wants people to pray for rivers. The reason it cut off after Adore as it never seemed to always be about the music anymore.

 
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaldz View Post
The reason it cut off after Adore as it never seemed to always be about the music anymore.
Fair enough. I enjoy the underlying philosophical explorations of his work post Adore. But I also appreciate the fact that not everyone does. And I really do believe that in any case, the music should be able to speak for itself, and any additional meaning or issue or exploration should merely expand the music for those who wish to pursue that route.

I also love Machina, TFE, and MSOTS, and even Zeitgeist, but I know I'm in the minority around here when it comes to those albums.

 
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:34 PM   #5
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Gish is overrated. Machina shits all over it.

 
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:43 PM   #6
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gish is only great when you factor in that it was a freshman album

 
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:46 PM   #7
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well you forgot about all the mellon collie b-sides! the aeroplane flies high was 5 cd's but realistically they all fit onto 2 cd's... and if you ask me, the aeroplane flies high is JUST as good as anything else on that list

 
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:49 PM   #8
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Of course it's debatable what can be considered very good material after Adore, but we're on a pumpkins message board because lots of us liked at least a fair amount of that material. By the way did Billy himself say, that a band should only make three albums, because it usually gets lame after that.

However, there's no denying that the overall quality of his work used to be better, and not merely because of the change of style.
So either you say, he's still somewhat solid and capable of a gem once in a while after all the great stuff he has already ripped from his heart. Or you say it's all a waste of time.

I personally liked his former image as tortured artist and lost soul, it just made the pathos of his lyrics more believable/bearable. The new spiritual Billy doesn't convince me when he's faking anger or melancholy. I think I overestimated Billy (and he surely did) in his ability to step out of the alt-rock genre. I kinda hope that someday he will go back to the old sound and chances are good, since he has ruled that out.

 
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:51 PM   #9
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there's been plenty of great music but like spaldz said, who gives a fuck if nobody is around to ehar it

 
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:55 PM   #10
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Billy's quality output must be looked at as a bell curve. It used to be that 80-90% of what he put out was great, now it's 10-20% at best. If you compare the best songs from each era you find they're all pretty fucking great, but there are far fewer of them now than there were back in the day.

So it's inaccurate to say Billy's songs aren't as good now. He just writes fewer songs that are representative of his full capabilities.

 
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:59 PM   #11
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that seems more like his capabilities have declined

 
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:52 PM   #12
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There is nothing brilliant or even that interesting about Gish. It's not like he started out great and then just got worse over time. The Pumpkins started out alright. They eventually became a great band. After 3 very creative pieces of work (Siamese Dream, Mellon Collie, Adore) they started to drop in quality.

 
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:26 PM   #13
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Billy should have stayed solo post Machina and not care about the idea of the Pumpkins anymore. The magic is long gone and a lot of that has to do with the falling out of the friendships that once held the band together and made it the most unique band rock has ever seen.

By the time the band realized they were being used by Virgin as a marketing tool to promote Virgin, MCIS was in it's full glory and they were too young to realize the process that got them to the top of alternative rock was over. Hard to recognize when all the trappings of success gets put on your lap daily, as it did for the band in '96, and yet try to keep your head on straight when Virgin is driving you to keep it going when it should've stopped and took a haitus (post Melvoin and JC overdoses).

Eventually everybody burned out and though I commend Billy for sticking with music and writing, that in itself is not a worthy path when you shit all over the people. I enjoyed TFE because at least it was an honest effort...the other stuff since Machina has had dubious motives imo.

 
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:00 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine Wheel View Post
There is nothing brilliant or even that interesting about Gish.
I think Rhinoceros disputes that proclamation.

 
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:12 AM   #15
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b;a b;a bla.

is this thread really interesting enough to post in?

 
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:23 AM   #16
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rhinocerous turns a mediocre album into one worth talking about.

 
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:21 AM   #17
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the only thing wrong with gish is it could've been twice as long and represented a much wider range of bc's songwriting ability. i'll never understand why some ppl don't like it.

 
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:57 AM   #18
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Gish is not as great as some people here believe it to be. Nostalgic fucks.

 
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T&T View Post
b;a b;a bla.

is this thread really interesting enough to post in?

APPARENTLY IT IS YOU FUCKING LOSER. FUCKING FAIL.

 
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Old 12-18-2009, 07:17 PM   #20
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So Gish isn't as mindblowingly euphorically awesome as Ella's acid trip, but it's far from being bad.

 
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:20 PM   #21
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While I'm not the biggest Gish fan by any means, both Fruit Bat Salad and the 92-ish tracks from Mashed Potatoes are mind-blowingly good. Gnarly live sets/classic banter from that time period.

 
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:37 PM   #22
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Gish is great when you consider it's their first official album. It's probably my least favorite Pumpkins album, but for the time, and the era, it makes me year for late 80's early 90's all over again just thinking about it.

 
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:39 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slunken View Post
While I'm not the biggest Gish fan by any means, both Fruit Bat Salad and the 92-ish tracks from Mashed Potatoes are mind-blowingly good. Gnarly live sets/classic banter from that time period.
I agree with this...in a sense. Most of the music from 1988-1992 is my most favorite Pumpkins era, but Gish itself seems rather conservative in terms of the uniformity of style on the album. For example, in some respects the 1989 demos actually had more interesting things going on than the album itself.

 
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Old 12-19-2009, 04:47 AM   #24
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You know recently I've been pondering more and more, how did this hack ever write good music, as opposed to how did Billy let himself go this far

 
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Old 12-19-2009, 11:17 AM   #25
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ADORE > MCIS > SIAMESE DREAM > MACHINA II > TFE > ZEITGEIST > MARY STAR > GISH > MACHINA



I really think the great songs on Machina are better than the great songs on Zeitgeist... as I think the bad songs on Machina are worst than the bad songs on Zg.

 
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Old 12-19-2009, 11:54 AM   #26
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all this talk of 'billy should have stayed solo' ... billy should have kept the name after james left and released MSOTS and TFE as pumpkins records.

Anyway:

MCIS>SD>ADORE>PI>TAFH>M2>M1>GISH>ZEITGEIST>TBG*

*so far

 
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:14 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Johnny View Post
all this talk of 'billy should have stayed solo' ... billy should have kept the name after james left and released MSOTS and TFE as pumpkins records.

Anyway:

MCIS>SD>ADORE>PI>TAFH>M2>M1>GISH>ZEITGEIST>TBG*

*so far
You nailed it my man.

 
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:16 AM   #28
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The album list that is, Zwan and the future escape would never be worthy of holding the SP title.

 
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