What happened to Billy on the way to becoming a mature artist?

[Dogfighter28]

If you watch the Eurockenees concert it is clear that a lot of angst had left him at they point. Ruby and Porcelina are completely rearranged, removing the most over the top parts. Very classy arrangements.

Then continuing the trend from second disc of MCIS, he releases Adore which is a masterpiece of mature songwriting. There is restraint shown, with just enough bombast for you to know it is pumpkins. Think the Ava Adore solo (which is inexplicably expanded in later live shows)

Then I'm convinced something happened. An irreparable wound. Was it a continuation of dealing with his mothers death? Yelena? Strained relationships in the band? Drugs? Or the ever popular approval complex?

He goes on to release machina which while good, started the trend of "give them what they want, but pretend it's a parody/cartoon version of the band" albums.

Adore -> Machina.

Back to doing what he really wants with TFE (we will leave out Zwan as its a complicated subject)

Zeitgeist - meant to be a "reintroduction to the band" ie a charicature to hook people and remind them of SP

FAILURE

leads to Oceania, another true period of BC doing what he wants (leave the debate on quality for another thread)

Now he is back in cartoon form with Monuments to an Elegy and promises Day for Night will be weirder and closer to a real SP album as he sees it.

It's a scarily cyclical pattern.

I have faith that if whatever broke his brain never happened we would at least be getting TFE quality work. He is a true artist no one is debating that. But he seems to not have come to terms with something. I see him as a man caught in purgatory.

[Dogfighter28]

Now that I've let that off my chest, it makes sense that the Yelena thing or some other crushing failed romance could be to blame.

Think about it. He used to have a definite type. He decried the Britneys of the world.

Now he dates nothing but the Britneys.

Tila Tequila
Jessica Simpson
That Veronicas girl

Hell he even wrote an album about how fucked up he was mentally over that last one.


Mods please rename this thread "the psychoanalysis of billy corgan"

[smashingschnauz]

Billy is still making GREAT music it's just not up to a level that is one of the highest levels you can get in song writing.

I love Oceania and I really like MTAE and they blow away most music today.

[pavementtune]

Originally Posted by smashingschnauz

I love Oceania and I really like MTAE and they blow away most music today.

what other music do you listen to? neither of the albums comes close to some of the really god releases from 2012-2014

if "blow away most music today" means the most of the average shit shopping center music - okay.
isn't that great of an accomplishment, though. not in context of quality SP/Corgan releases.

[Elphenor]

Originally Posted by Belteshazzar

blows my mind that people think Oceania is better than Zeitgeist in its entirety.

Blows my mind that anyone can stomach a full ZG song

[SensibleChuckle]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

Blows my mind that anyone can stomach a full ZG song

Stellar?

[Elphenor]

One of the better ones but I still never can get through it Zzzzzzzzzzz

[SpFission]

ZG is unlistenable. At least Monuments is a fairly accessible album...and Oceania has its moments.

[Elphenor]

"unlistenable" is the perfect way to describe it.

Everything about it is so in your face awful. Literally the WORST album I've ever heard from an established group. It blows my mind how bad it is

[Shallowed]

Originally Posted by Dogfighter28

Then I'm convinced something happened. An irreparable wound. Was it a continuation of dealing with his mothers death? Yelena? Strained relationships in the band? Drugs? Or the ever popular approval complex?

Mother dying?

[Dogfighter28]

This thread is not about quality it's about psychology

Mods delete this please this board sucks

[Elphenor]

I think he has a need to be loved and accepted by a large number of people due to his childhood. This is something he's talked about on numerous occasion.

When Adore "failed" it really hurt him so he tried to recapture it with Machina and that failed as well which probably made him increasingly obnoxious to deal with leading to the divorce of the band.

He tries TFE and Zwan but neither of those things get him the attention he wants, so he resurrects SP and makes ZG. It get horribly panned and Billy turns into a raging asshole again and Jimmy is like "fuck this" and jumps ship.

Billy tries to get attention with TBK and then Oash, doesn't work. So now we get MTAE

Billy desperately wants to be mega famous

[MyKeyZ]

What happened?

Billy became immature and rather play blame games and altering history.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

I think he has a need to be loved and accepted by a large number of people due to his childhood. This is something he's talked about on numerous occasion.

When Adore "failed" it really hurt him so he tried to recapture it with Machina and that failed as well which probably made him increasingly obnoxious to deal with leading to the divorce of the band.

He tries TFE and Zwan but neither of those things get him the attention he wants, so he resurrects SP and makes ZG. It get horribly panned and Billy turns into a raging asshole again and Jimmy is like "fuck this" and jumps ship.

Billy tries to get attention with TBK and then Oash, doesn't work. So now we get MTAE

Billy desperately wants to be mega famous

I think Monuments really is miles ahead of anything from Teargraden or Oash. The way I see it is, he wasn't happy with the response from those prior albums so he upped his game with MTAE.

I don't know why people consider monuments to be some kind of sell-out album. It's actually incredibly diverse and experimental as far as recent Corgan work has gone.

[juliana]

You can type out teargarden but not oceania?

[fuzzyroes]

very observant Juliana

I don't really like Oceania, so it's only "oash" in my books

[null123]

I think he can't reconcile his need to be "in the conversation" culturally ie "be relevant" with his need to be himself. Who he is and what (I think) he wants to say is completely at odds with the zeitgeist and where things are going. He wants to make a protest statement about the world but he can't because the very same conflict that creates that desire in him manifests as the world not taking him seriously. He can't move the conversation onto his terms. So artistically I think this has resulted in him losing a sense of his own voice - the work often feels uninspired and cold now, I think because Billy seems to be working on music in almost purely formal terms. Songcraft and such have continued to be high level but it doesn't mean a lot if it's not being used as a vehicle to say something. In terms of intellectual/emotional/political content his music feels very timid and noncommittal.

[dreams of glass]

B-but he's breaking down the machine

that's what he said

[Lt_Beans_McGood]

Just because it has synth strings and three syllable words doesn't mean it's mature

[FoolofaTook]

Originally Posted by smashingschnauz

I love Oceania and I really like MTAE and they blow away most music today.

http://img.memerial.net/memerial.net/2320/go-eat.jpg

[ninsp]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

"unlistenable" is the perfect way to describe it.

Everything about it is so in your face awful. Literally the WORST album I've ever heard from an established group. It blows my mind how bad it is

Correct.

[killtrocity]

I was just listening to Star Song, and even without lyrics, it destroys anything from Oceania or Monuments

[s0ss]

Billy has many problems. One of them is that he thinks he is happy.

[bye june]

Originally Posted by killtrocity

I was just listening to Star Song, and even without lyrics, it destroys anything from Oceania or Monuments

Yes it does.

[Ram27]

Seriously.

Listening to stuff like that, random throwaway demos...it's egregious how good it is compared to the new stuff.

Or Meladori Magpie. Or Tulips. It's just ridiculous how seemingly effortlessly good the band was back then. QAOS, as a record, even though it's not a record, complete with crappy quality, tape hiss, false starts, random banter, is 25 times better than the best parts of MTAE. I mean....it's crazy.

[Mals Marola]

Some of this is just delusional/misplaced nostalgia. Tulips is cool but it's not like he's completely lost his knack for instrumentals (meaning strictly the instrumental sections of his current songs, not just his mother doc without lyrics.)

Corgan lost his penchant for singing as "himself" and stopped trying to write exclusively on lost love, childhood issues, or general angst and those are basically the only things missing. He had broken from these moulds in the past but it's obv a lot more frequent now and combine with the "take me SERIOUSLY as a singer" approach it's a bit less tangible or relatable for the common [earlier] pumpkins fan.

Clearly there's still something of interest going on, otherwise no one would feel the need to distinguish which songs were takers & leavers from MTAE etc.

[Spira|_]

Originally Posted by s0ss

Billy has many problems. One of them is that he thinks he is happy.

I feel it too....

[MyOneAndOnly]

margin

[MyOneAndOnly]

he'll almost certainly continue to write some good songs. but it's obvious now after nearly a decade of sabotaging his "band" that he can't produce a quality studio album.

[ninsp]

You're a piece of shit.