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Old 10-05-2002, 05:36 PM   #61
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Originally posted by Samsa
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What the hell is that all about?
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Old 10-05-2002, 05:39 PM   #62
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Originally posted by sawdust resteraunts:
Ok, maybe I'm not understanding you because I don't see how the thought of women being created from man's rib means that men are better than women or whatever. (I know that's not exactly what you meant, I was just having a brainfart, couldn't think of the right word). I'm not a typical Christian, and I don't believe there is such a thing really.. the idiots that get on tv and start talking about how gays and lesbians were the cause of September 11th, those are just idiots, considering the Bible preaches tolerance, and it's not there place to say that God did anything, how would they know? That's like me telling you that you're going to hell because you don't believe in God. It's not my place. Ok, now i'm just rambing...

Anyway, I think I just don't see where you're coming from here.

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 05:41 PM   #63
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Originally posted by sawdust restaurants


You contradict yourself: you say it's not a shame to believe woman was created out of man. You also say woman should be paid the same as man. Yet the first statement and its connotations are what allows Christian conservatives with an agenda to dogmatize society and stigmatize those who would dare speak out against something so obviously irrelevant and backwards (i.e. sexism) as sacriligious. Thus, the cycle gets perpetuated.

Exactly.
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Old 10-05-2002, 05:43 PM   #64
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Originally posted by Affect
What the hell is that all about?
jews believe that god's name is so holy that it is a sin to destroy it basically, therefore they abstain from writing his name on anything that has the possibility of being destroyed. this is generally employed with the tetragram YHVH yet it's sort of carried over into the english word 'god' which i dont' understand since that's not his name. anyways. so old torahs and prayerbooks that have god's name aren't thrown away or destroyed, they're kept in some safe room or whatever, and later on they're buried. my grandfather was buried with a box of prayerbooks.

anyways, chris, the fact that there are two creation stories of course does nothing to change the societal rammifications of the PERCEPTION of the creation story, all it does is refute these perceptions and their societal rammifications, by saying no, you're wrong.

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 05:45 PM   #65
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This should have been a poll topic.

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 05:46 PM   #66
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Originally posted by BeautifulLoser
Ok, maybe I'm not understanding you because I don't see how the thought of women being created from man's rib means that men are better than women or whatever. (I know that's not exactly what you meant, I was just having a brainfart, couldn't think of the right word). I'm not a typical Christian, and I don't believe there is such a thing really.. the idiots that get on tv and start talking about how gays and lesbians were the cause of September 11th, those are just idiots, considering the Bible preaches tolerance, and it's not there place to say that God did anything, how would they know? That's like me telling you that you're going to hell because you don't believe in God. It's not my place. Ok, now i'm just rambing...

Anyway, I think I just don't see where you're coming from here.
The initial debate is about the gender of God. You seem to have accepted that God is not male and doesn't have a gender, "he" is just used in the bible for convinience, which is a sorry excuse to me, they could have just used God throughout and never specified "he". But that's towards Samsa, not you. Now with you the debate is about the role of women, I believe that men and women are equal, made at the same time...You believe that men and women are equal but one came from the other, if you think about it, that rules out the possibility of using the term equal, since equal can also mean "the same" and if they're not made at the same time, then they're not the same are they?
Men come first, and women come second, men vote first, and later women vote second.
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Old 10-05-2002, 05:49 PM   #67
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Originally posted by sp_aced


The initial debate is about the gender of God. You seem to have accepted that God is not male and doesn't have a gender, "he" is just used in the bible for convinience, which is a sorry excuse to me, they could have just used God throughout and never specified "he". But that's towards Samsa, not you. Now with you the debate is about the role of women, I believe that men and women are equal, made at the same time...You believe that men and women are equal but one came from the other, if you think about it, that rules out the possibility of using the term equal, since equal can also mean "the same" and if they're not made at the same time, then they're not the same are they?
Men come first, and women come second, men vote first, and later women vote second.
in the hebrew language nouns and other parts of speech which i forget have a gender attached to them. tell me how this can be avoided!?!?

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 05:50 PM   #68
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andanyways, sure maybe they COULD have found some way of not using a gender specific term, but come on, this was thousands of years ago and society was patriarchal, and even st augustine knows you can't judge ancient figures by today's standards.

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 05:51 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by sp_aced


The initial debate is about the gender of God. You seem to have accepted that God is not male and doesn't have a gender, "he" is just used in the bible for convinience, which is a sorry excuse to me, they could have just used God throughout and never specified "he". But that's towards Samsa, not you. Now with you the debate is about the role of women, I believe that men and women are equal, made at the same time...You believe that men and women are equal but one came from the other, if you think about it, that rules out the possibility of using the term equal, since equal can also mean "the same" and if they're not made at the same time, then they're not the same are they?
Men come first, and women come second, men vote first, and later women vote second.
*shrug* It may sound weird, it'll probably get blown way out of proportion, but men and women are different, and since they are different, therefore not "the same" as you said earlier, then they're not equal. There *are* somethings that men can do better than women, and some things that women can do better than men. But as people, they are equal, because whether one was derived from the rib of the other, God made them both. I dunno if I explained that really well.. I don't think I did. I have sort of strange views I don't really want to bring out here, because it'll just be flame central. But anyway, I suppose we just disagree.

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 05:54 PM   #70
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Originally posted by BeautifulLoser
But as people, they are equal, because whether one was derived from the rib of the other, God made them both.
But not everybody thinks that way, and if you don't qualify your statements then you are really just fueling the inequality fire.

That was my main point.

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 05:59 PM   #71
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Originally posted by sawdust restaurants


But not everybody thinks that way, and if you don't qualify your statements then you are really just fueling the inequality fire.

That was my main point.
Ok, so not everybody thinks that way.... there's alot of people that don't think like me. What am I supposed to do about it? How am I "fueling the inequality fire" here?

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 06:21 PM   #72
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Originally posted by BeautifulLoser
Ok, so not everybody thinks that way.... there's alot of people that don't think like me. What am I supposed to do about it? How am I "fueling the inequality fire" here?
She's got a point babe-o.

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 06:26 PM   #73
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At this point I'm just thinking "to each their own"...we all believe different things, that's what makes us so unique.
I do want to state that it was good to actually debate without the flames and profanity...Is netphoria growing up? Or is this just a thread that holds more mature people than your average netphoria thread?
I will have to go with the latter
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Old 10-05-2002, 08:02 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by sp_aced
At this point I'm just thinking "to each their own"...we all believe different things, that's what makes us so unique.
I do want to state that it was good to actually debate without the flames and profanity...Is netphoria growing up? Or is this just a thread that holds more mature people than your average netphoria thread?
I will have to go with the latter
I hope you all die and God makes you write out this thread 1000 times on 1000 chalkboards.

New board - old netphoria

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 08:08 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by sp_aced
At this point I'm just thinking "to each their own"...we all believe different things, that's what makes us so unique.
I do want to state that it was good to actually debate without the flames and profanity...Is netphoria growing up? Or is this just a thread that holds more mature people than your average netphoria thread?
I will have to go with the latter
You're a pooh pooh head. Yeah, I'd say it's the latter.

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 08:38 PM   #76
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Originally posted by BeautifulLoser
So you're saying that because a huge group of people don't completely agree on something, that automatically discredits the whole thing? Of course, if a huge group of people get together, one or two groups within that group are going to interpret something different than someone else...
it's not a case of 'completely agreeing' with eachother. in this example, there will be some christians who believe every word of the bible, then there will be some who think it's all make-believe.

so some christians will believe that noah made an ark and put all the animals on it, and some will believe it never happened at all. i'd say that this amounts to more than a different in 'interpretation'.

my old catholic headmaster used to use the word 'alledgedly' whenever he mentioned the bible. he was as relgious as they come yet he thought the bible, for the most part, was a storybook; he didn't believe a word of it.
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Old 10-05-2002, 09:20 PM   #77
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Originally posted by scouse_dave
it's not a case of 'completely agreeing' with eachother. in this example, there will be some christians who believe every word of the bible, then there will be some who think it's all make-believe.

so some christians will believe that noah made an ark and put all the animals on it, and some will believe it never happened at all. i'd say that this amounts to more than a different in 'interpretation'.

my old catholic headmaster used to use the word 'alledgedly' whenever he mentioned the bible. he was as relgious as they come yet he thought the bible, for the most part, was a storybook; he didn't believe a word of it.
Yeah, it's sort of hard to tell. I think some of the stuff happened, but it's impossible to know... That's why I have a hard time going to church sometimes... because if you ever said "allegedly" in front of a Bible story, they'd likely kick you out. At least the churches around my hometown.They don't care if you actually believe in Jesus or not.

I had a conversation about Evolution one time at a church I used to go to... people talked about me behind my back until I left. It's terrible.

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 09:24 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by BeautifulLoser
Yeah, it's sort of hard to tell. I think some of the stuff happened, but it's impossible to know... That's why I have a hard time going to church sometimes... because if you ever said "allegedly" in front of a Bible story, they'd likely kick you out. At least the churches around my hometown.They don't care if you actually believe in Jesus or not.

I had a conversation about Evolution one time at a church I used to go to... people talked about me behind my back until I left. It's terrible.
well..aside from the fact that people at your church sound like arseholes...

why do you need/want to go to church anyway? if you believe in god and all that isn't that enough?
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Old 10-05-2002, 09:31 PM   #79
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Originally posted by scouse_dave


well..aside from the fact that people at your church sound like arseholes...

why do you need/want to go to church anyway? if you believe in god and all that isn't that enough?
It's not really that I feel I need to... I enjoy it, if it's a good church. I believe in God on my own, but sometimes I feel the urge to talk to other people about it, or listen to someone talk about it... and none of my friends here share my views. It can also be a good place to just sit and meditate.

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 10:32 PM   #80
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Q:How big must the arc have been if it contained a pair of every animal?
A: 2 times the size of the o-board

 
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Old 10-05-2002, 10:35 PM   #81
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Originally posted by MstrGhost
Q:How big must the arc have been if it contained a pair of every animal?
A: 2 times the size of the o-board
*cymbals crash*
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Old 10-05-2002, 11:07 PM   #82
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it was just a guess...

 
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Old 10-06-2002, 01:46 AM   #83
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God: Noah! They shalt build thyself an ark, measuring 300 cubits in length!

Noah: (Jotting this down with a jumbo marker) 300 cubits, give or take.

God: Exactly 300! And thou shalt taketh two of every creature!

Noah: (Writing it down) Two creatures.

God: Two of Every Creature!

Noah: Even stink beetles?

God: Especially stink beetles!

 
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Old 10-06-2002, 03:48 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by BeautifulLoser
Ok, so not everybody thinks that way.... there's alot of people that don't think like me. What am I supposed to do about it? How am I "fueling the inequality fire" here?
I thought I already addressed this, but maybe it was unclear.

For once in my life, I'm thinking in the concrete rather than the abstract here, so I'm only talking about this one specific example. If you just say woman comes from a man's rib, you have to be aware of the connotations it has--you know what you mean when you say it, but others don't. An example:

In my high school newspaper class, I started teasing one of my close (female) friends about how women's sports deserved to be buried somewhere in the paper because they weren't important. I don't really believe that for a second, and my friend knew that. However, other people who didn't know me as well overheard me, and they immediately thought I was being at least somewhat serious. A woman's sports bashing episode ensued, because people thought they were given tacit approval by the paper's business manager to do so.

In both your case and my case, we said things without taking the larger context into consideration, and we inadvertently perpetuate things we wind up being against. There's nothing wrong with stating what you believe, but without the proper context to back it up, people get the wrong idea--and it's not fair to say it's their fault when WE should be aware of what we're doing.

 
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Old 10-06-2002, 01:40 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andrew_Pakula
God: Noah! They shalt build thyself an ark, measuring 300 cubits in length!

Noah: (Jotting this down with a jumbo marker) 300 cubits, give or take.

God: Exactly 300! And thou shalt taketh two of every creature!

Noah: (Writing it down) Two creatures.

God: Two of Every Creature!

Noah: Even stink beetles?

God: Especially stink beetles!
props to random Simpsons references!

 
Old 10-06-2002, 02:11 PM   #86
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Originally posted by sawdust restaurants

yeah except in your example you were being sarcastic and people didn't realize it. in the other case, i don't even get your point. apparently because some people interpret something some way you're not allowed to believe in that thing at all, no matter how you interpret it. real good logic.

 
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Old 10-06-2002, 02:58 PM   #87
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Originally posted by Samsa


yeah except in your example you were being sarcastic and people didn't realize it. in the other case, i don't even get your point. apparently because some people interpret something some way you're not allowed to believe in that thing at all, no matter how you interpret it. real good logic.
Yeah. I don't see how the fact that one gender was made from another really means that one gender is less important or less relevant than another.

 
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Old 10-06-2002, 03:06 PM   #88
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Originally posted by Samsa
apparently because some people interpret something some way you're not allowed to believe in that thing at all, no matter how you interpret it. real good logic.
No no no ... that's not what I'm saying.

I'm just saying that you should (this is a value judgment here, so feel free to disagree) try to go out of your way to make sure people understand where you're coming from--otherwise they may think YOU support others' interpretations of what you're saying and thus perhaps gain that interpretation themselves.

It's not something that can happen all the time, and it may not even be necessary among discourse with intelligent people, but it does happen. It's really not even that big of a deal.

 
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Old 10-06-2002, 03:10 PM   #89
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no, it's not that big of a deal.

 
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