rolling sexism thread

[pavementtune]

Originally Posted by vixnix

That can happen to a lot of people, male and female, who lack the communication skills to establish their competence for a job, to others. Not something I would have thought you'd have a problem with!!

oh I see, it's my fault for having to deal with it, it's my lack of communication skill, not maybe the fact that 90% of the industry I work in is male, and has no intention to chagne that.

guess it's also the lack of communication skills that we don't get equal pay.
It makes me really happy to find out sexism is a myth, really it's just bad communication. fabricated by bored white, ATTRACTIVE young women, right?

[vixnix]

If you're not paid equally, you should take them to court - is there not legislation to protect you, in the U.S.? There is, here.

Women on the whole, are paid less here, because the work arrangements tend to be different after they have children. So because they work park time, their salary decreases, because the nature of the work that they can engage with, and the nature of their engagement with that work, is different.

[The exploding boy]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Well, you know, they don't have huge issues like being displaced from their homes or being arrested or executed for disagreeing with their governments or whatever so then they end up finding something else really important to engage that society-changing urge that 'the youth' of any historical period or society are famous for feeling, and acting on.

yeah but what does attractive have to do with anything

[vixnix]

Oh well I mean they can't even get upset about how attractive people are given more opportunities than ugly people. They really have nothing to complain about, and they have no interests or hobbies and an abundance of spare time, so they just start making stuff up, to feel indignant about.

Oh, poor privileged little me, having to live in a society where women are undervalued and nobody appreciates chick flicks or NSYNC just because girls like them. So awful. So sad. Neva 4get

I once said to charms, it could have been sexism with you, or it could have been bottled water. you just needed something in your life that felt important and like you understood it. She got pretty pissed.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by vixnix

I've worked in government departments, too...and I have plenty of white friends who work in professional environments. I did mention that.

We have a lot of female heads of state, these days, and a lot of females in every sector of society. That stuff wouldn't happen if female opinions were on the whole, devalued.

That doesn't mean that SOME females may find their opinions devalued. That can happen to a lot of people, male and female, who lack the communication skills to establish their competence for a job, to others. Not something I would have thought you'd have a problem with!!

hey americans, we have a black president and lots of black ppl have good jobs so black people aren't marginalized, on the whole

[reprise85]

oh course that doesn't mean that SOME black people aren't marginalized. that can happen to a lot of people, black and white, who lack the communication skills to establish their competence for a job

[The exploding boy]

so if young white people want to get involved politically, they're just full of shit and are looking for a way to justify their easy empty lives?

also you probably meant to add middle class there.

[pavementtune]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Oh well I mean they can't even get upset about how attractive people are given more opportunities than ugly people. They really have nothing to complain about, and they have no interests or hobbies and an abundance of spare time, so they just start making stuff up, to feel indignant about.

Oh, poor privileged little me, having to live in a society where women are undervalued and nobody appreciates chick flicks or NSYNC just because girls like them. So awful. So sad. Neva 4get

I once said to charms, it could have been sexism with you, or it could have been bottled water. you just needed something in your life that felt important and like you understood it. She got pretty pissed.

3 stars out of 10 on the stand-up scale. you can troll better.

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by reprise85

oh course that doesn't mean that SOME black people aren't marginalized. that can happen to a lot of people, black and white, who lack the communication skills to establish their competence for a job

That isn't a black thing then, is it? It's a class thing.

Originally Posted by The exploding boy

so if young white people want to get involved politically, they're just full of shit and are looking for a way to justify their easy empty lives?

also you probably meant to add middle class there.

Oh yeah, you're right. Absolutely.

[The exploding boy]

i smell classism and racism in here.

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by pavementtune

3 stars out of 10 on the stand-up scale. you can troll better.

like, do you have specific examples of how sexism has affected you at work? I'm all ears...seriously. Tell us some tales that will shock me into reality.

[reprise85]

it may be true that it's a class thing but it's also a racism as an institution thing. i wont pretend to know more about sexism than i do but the fact that women have a harder time getting high position jobs has to be rooted in something, doesnt it? and yeah im sure a lot is based on the idea that they will want or already have babies and can't be a corporate drone 24/7, but is that really acceptable?

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by reprise85

oh course that doesn't mean that SOME black people aren't marginalized. that can happen to a lot of people, black and white, who lack the communication skills to establish their competence for a job

Hear what saith Chris Rock and a hall full of black people have to say about black people's problems.

[pavementtune]

Originally Posted by vixnix

like, do you have specific examples of how sexism has affected you at work? I'm all ears...seriously. Tell us some tales that will shock me into reality.

for what? so you can wait a month and call me on of those "career obsessed women" again, shaming me for wanting to work there in the first place instead of raising kids?
no thanks, also I don't want to ruin your nice WHITE suburbian bubble, you can do your trolling just fine without getting in touch with reality.

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by vixnix

I wonder if this boils down to class/education as well, though. I would be interested in looking at the individual studies and any peer review/criticism of them.

If I get the time, I may track them down.

Originally Posted by vixnix

People are complex and are hard wired/develop neural networks to detect who they should trust, and who they shouldn't. But genuine competence usually trumps preconceptions, in my experience. So, whatever somebody believes about females generally, if an individual female repeatedly displays competence and mastery, she will end up being trusted.

I'm not so sure that humans are rational enough for them to always weigh competence more than preconceptions. We are subject to a lot of cognitive biases.

There's this one study where university students were lectured by a person who related valuable information, but was very dry, as well as a person spouting nonsense, but who was very charismatic and entertaining. Students rated the latter lecturer as "more knowledgeable," despite the fact that his lectures lacked the substance of the former.

Originally Posted by vixnix

Off the top of my head, I would have thought that one problem with experiments involving single tasks, is that they don't adequately capture the nuances of human interaction - most of which persist over time. None of the professional females I know have complained that people don't take them seriously. A few have complained that they found it difficult to find a mate/partner, because people were intimidated by, rather than attracted to, their status as professionals. In the end, it turned out that highly accomplished professionals are indeed attracted to, and not intimidated by other accomplished professionals. So most of the doctors I'm friends with, married other doctors. Or they married lawyers, or government advisors, or whatever.

Even if it may be true that biases against women lessen with more positive interaction with that woman, that would just raise the question of why women need to contend with needing to prove themselves in ways that men don't have to.

Originally Posted by vixnix

Most action and adventure films also contain a love interest/love story in addition to the action and adventure, though. Whereas romantic comedies just have one, in greater detail, without the other. So it makes sense that one genre would have a narrower appeal than the other, without it having anything to do with women...?

I don't think it ends at movies. Girls who are into "male" interests (sports, video games, etc) seem to gain a little bit of prestige from being cooler than "regular" girls, whereas boys don't get high-fives for liking to braid doll hair. Many parents are comfortable with their girls playing with "boy toys," but when little Bobby plays with Barbies, then "that boy ain't right."

Originally Posted by vixnix

I feel like it's a white person thing, too. I felt a bit like that with charmbag on here. Like attractive young white people want to be involved in some kind of political activism, which is a natural and understandable urge. And sexism is something that's safe, and manageable, and fashionable, so for them it becomes the cause du jour.

I don't think that sexism is some phenomena that only exists in the Third World. I also find that "they just hold opinion X because they have shortcoming Y and haven't thought it through" seems to be the same sort of argument you were criticizing in the post you linked.

Plenty of women have complained about not being taken seriously in the professional world. You just may not happen to be personally acquainted with them. I mean, in STEM fields, 70% of women surveyed have said that they've faced sexual harrassment from superiors. That may be part of why so many quit and don't go as far in their careers as men. And then we look at the disparity and go, "well, if women want to be equal to men, they ought to just go into the same fields and work hard instead of complaining or getting arts degrees."

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Hear what saith Chris Rock and a hall full of black people have to say about black people's problems.

you can't be fucking serious

[MyOneAndOnly]

Ugh

[vixnix]

You cite a lot of facts, studies and statistics without sources...it's hard to know how seriously to take them.

I don't know if they just build women more robust where I'm from, but the women I know who chose to work in STEM fields would report unwanted sexual attention by a superior.

My all girls high school celebrated the fact that NZ was the first country to give women the vote, and we learned about suffragettes who starved themselves and were painfully force-fed, or were trampled to death just so that we could vote, and we were strongly counselled not to take that for granted. Quite often. We were made aware of many societies in the world, both historical and current, that did not formally educate females. My school was also in the capital and in the same neighbourhood as parliament, so perhaps we enjoyed some kind of educational privilege.

That being the case, being sexually harassed would be a problem that could be fixed, for myself and for women I know. Sexual harassment is grounds for dismissal. Have them dismissed. If they can't be dismissed, then ask to not be left alone with them and work hard to usurp their position. Seek counsel from a psychologist so you can be more assertive. Ask your union rep what can be done. Investigate and discern the relevant government authority, and seek advice.

The fact that this is not common practice, enough that sexual harassment is still prevalent, in my mind shows that a lot of women are ignorant and unprepared for work when they enter the workplace, and those women who have entered it before us, haven't adhered to the old adage that you should leave a place in a better state than you found it in when you arrived. Which is sad.

Though I'm sure Jewelian will have something to say about how hard it is to stand up for your values.

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by reprise85

you can't be fucking serious

I'm totally serious. Pretty sure he is, too. It's not as simple as "poor old black folk". That in itself is a racist attitude, right? To think that a person's skin color still determines their future, as opposed to a person's family of origin, their parents level of education, whether or not their parents are employed, etc.

If you see a preppy college guy whose skin is dark you'd be racist to think that he'd had to overcome some shit just to be at uni.

So it's not really a "black" problem. It's a class problem...isn't it?

[Disco King]

I'm supposed to be writing an essay right now, so I'm more worried about citing my essay sources than my forum post sources, but when I get time, I will. I at least remembered the authors of one of them, and the year of the study, so it should be relatively painless for you to find that one.

Women learning to stand up for not being discriminated against is great and empowering and all, but we should keep in mind that men have the privilege of never having to learn skills to overcome and cope with sexism against them, and ask why.

[vixnix]

Plenty of men have needed to overcome other things, though - being Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, black, brown, Italian, not being a native speaker of the local language.

[vixnix]

Lack of education, poverty, inherited debts...

The problem isn't that women are disadvantaged in a male dominated workplace. The problem is that in any workplace there are always a couple of Crackberry Dumbasses who try to push other people around to gain an advantage of some kind, and at the moment, if they're not reported and disciplined, they actually end up being rewarded.

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by vixnix

I'm totally serious. Pretty sure he is, too. It's not as simple as "poor old black folk". That in itself is a racist attitude, right? To think that a person's skin color still determines their future, as opposed to a person's family of origin, their parents level of education, whether or not their parents are employed, etc.

If you see a preppy college guy whose skin is dark you'd be racist to think that he'd had to overcome some shit just to be at uni.

So it's not really a "black" problem. It's a class problem...isn't it?

I'm sure you know the difference between complete determinism and partial determinism. It's obvious that nobody claims that being black is a necessary and sufficient condition to having a poor socio-economic outcome. It's a causal factor. So are sex, immigrant status, SES status of parents, education, and a lot of other things.

Obviously, you can't know how much struggle one had to overcome just by looking at them. But, by knowing their race, you can know the relative probability of them encountering those struggles. That's what statistics are about. Probabilities and causal factors, not 1:1 determinism.

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Plenty of men have needed to overcome other things, though - being Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, black, brown, Italian, not being a native speaker of the local language.

Yes. There are many dimensions of discrimination. Trying to de-emphasise a type of discrimination by saying "others exist" ignores the concept of control variables.

When you control for other variables, women are still discriminated against on the basis of sex, which makes them, as a group, disadvantaged vis-à-vis men.

Originally Posted by vixnix

Lack of education, poverty, inherited debts...

The problem isn't that women are disadvantaged in a male dominated workplace. The problem is that in any workplace there are always a couple of Crackberry Dumbasses who try to push other people around to gain an advantage of some kind, and at the moment, if they're not reported and disciplined, they actually end up being rewarded.

It seems to be a common knee-jerk response to blame hostile environments on "a few bad apples," even though we know that certain attitudes are often systemic and ingrained in the culture and operations of a workplace.

[pavementtune]

Originally Posted by vixnix

The problem isn't that women are disadvantaged in a male dominated workplace.

thanks for letting me know what isn't a problem. would you agree to speak at a panel about opportunities and limits for women in a male dominated workplace/industry? you'd get paid.

[Trotskilicious]

did we solve all the problems yet

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by vixnix

I'm totally serious. Pretty sure he is, too. It's not as simple as "poor old black folk". That in itself is a racist attitude, right? To think that a person's skin color still determines their future, as opposed to a person's family of origin, their parents level of education, whether or not their parents are employed, etc.

If you see a preppy college guy whose skin is dark you'd be racist to think that he'd had to overcome some shit just to be at uni.

So it's not really a "black" problem. It's a class problem...isn't it?

Black persons are extremely over-represented in prisons and experience poverty at a much higher rate than whites. There is nothing so simple as "class" that can explain these things. They also have generally lower IQs. In the same way that there are causal factors to explain this (lower SES = lower IQs, regardless of race, or questions that don't take into account different experiences, or that IQ tests don't accurately measure intelligence, etc), there are many causal factors to explain those other two things. But it is not merely a class problem when a ridiculously disproportionate amount of black males end up in prison and get longer sentences than white people. Just as an example.

I honestly think Disco King has a better grasp at how to argue with you than I do, but not it certainly isn't a class problem.

[vixnix]

Workplaces only have a culture because of the people who work there, who create it. Most workplaces involve workers from disparate origins, so wouldn't the culture be flexible and open to change?

Talking about control variables and statistics makes an analysis of something like a human workplace seem more scientific than it actually is. Especially when there are no reliable sources of information at hand.

I would like to see how women are disadvantaged coming straight out of university into professional fields, vis-a-vis men. And how that can be measured and verified.

Sure, I'd speak on a panel, pave. I know plenty of others who would, too! Most of them would be proud to talk about their careers in law, medicine, biochemistry, etc. and would probably be embarrassed by the suggestion that they encountered limits based on them being female. Mostly because it would indicate that the person who asked the question might come from a place where people tolerated poor treatment in the workplace and didn't do anything about it, and what that says about that person/place. Mostly that they should be pitied

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Disco King

]
It seems to be a common knee-jerk response to blame hostile environments on "a few bad apples," even though we know that certain attitudes are often systemic and ingrained in the culture and operations of a workplace.

I think it's both. There are not that many bad apples, but society favors their advancement because it awards ruthless behavior. So it's both, but ultimately most people try to do good at a disadvantage to themselves compared to someone who just goes for unlimited power.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Sure, I'd speak on a panel, pave. I know plenty of others who would, too! Most of them would be proud to talk about their careers in law, medicine, biochemistry, etc. and would probably be embarrassed by the suggestion that they encountered limits based on them being female. Mostly because it would indicate that the person who asked the question might come from a place where people tolerated poor treatment in the workplace and didn't do anything about it, and what that says about that person/place. Mostly that they should be pitied

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