Why is shiny lame although james and jimmy are back?

[brothahi4L]

I really want them to release a really good album that gains attention , but somehow the magic is long gone.

Main point is that the guitar interplay and spacey instrumental parts ate missing.
Marchin on is good vocalwise and the production fits for marchin, but mostly not for the other songs( except silvery and sympathy)

You thoughts please

[brothahi4L]

I really want them to release a really good album that gains attention , but somehow the magic is long gone.

Main point is that the guitar interplay and spacey instrumental parts ate missing.
Marchin on is good vocalwise and the production fits for marchin, but mostly not for the other songs( except silvery and sympathy)

You thoughts please

[brothahi4L]

I really want them to release a really good album that gains attention , but somehow the magic is long gone.

Main point is that the guitar interplay and spacey instrumental parts ate missing.
Marchin on is good vocalwise and the production fits for marchin, but mostly not for the other songs( except silvery and sympathy)

You thoughts please

[FoolofaTook]

ecxellent thread

[FoolofaTook]

ecxellent thread

[FoolofaTook]

ecxellent thread

[Zer0 Hour]

Thanks for making three of these threads. Really important stuff here that no one should miss out on.

[Eulogy]

Who cares about attention. Three rock bands get attention.

[Green Eyes]

Shut up Borat.

[johncg]

I’ll bite.

Even though James and Jimmy are back, the absence of D’Arcy is significant. Also, Billy’s best work happened with either Butch Vig or Flood producing: two very hip, savvy men with strong enough personalities to shoot down his aesthetic excesses. Billy is a talented writer but without tastemakers who have strong backbones to challenge him, he just goes off into the panopticon of pomp and circumstance. And like a true American Gothic, he does so for God and Country.

As D’Arcy stated in her Alternative Nation interviews, Jimmy and James don’t stand Billy down. They just go along. I’m not sure what Rubin’s deal is but I doubt he has the influence over Billy that Butch or Flood did in the early 90’s when he was scared to death of failure and truly looked up to them.

So, short answer: Billy has no one around with balls to tell him “Knights of Malta” is objectively the worst song title ever in the history of man for a lead single.

[brothahi4L]

SORRY GUYS; SOMETHING WENT WRONG ; I DIDNT WANT TO OPEN 3 THREADS

[Disco King]

I've been saying for years that even if the original band were back together, Pumpkins wouldn't magically become good again.

Yes, the other three members are important to the sound and have got an undeniable influence. But Corgan has always been the main driver and songwriter. And he's not a good songwriter anymore. Having Iha in the room doesn't change that.

[MonumentsRocks]

Most big rock stars did their best work in their 20's, and we usually give them a pass. We know all the greats kill themselves by 27 y/o, leaving nothing but a spotless legacy of pure talent, but any who live longer tapper off. But we don't give Billy the same exception, because he's an arrogant fuckwad. If, for whatever reason, Billy did cease living prior to the 2000 breakup, his legacy would probably be similar to Sid Vicious, but I am very glad he lived, I don't wish death upon most.

[FoolofaTook]

obviously you have never listened to B O R I S

[FoolofaTook]

wtf kind of an artist peaks in their 20s?

[FoolofaTook]

you smoking dat hard monuments?

[Glopaiswe]

Cuz D'Arcy, duh

[Ihaguitar]

It's probably a combination of D'Arcy, he's getting older, he started believing in God, Linda Strawberry hanging around, not singing the same.

[incubator]

The songs are really “impatient”. They’re straight in, no build up, no intro. What you hear in the first few seconds of a song is pretty much how the songs gonna go. 2 repeat of the verse riff and then the vocals come in, every time.

The songs are are all one thing. Even moreso than MTAE. Again, what you hear in the first few seconds.. it’s a very restrained album.

The solos are nice but all quite similar and slow. The bands got 3 guitarists that can shred your face off and just did on a big tour but here they just play the vocal melody with some decoration. The heavier songs all could’ve been improved massively if they just...went for it. Again, too restrained. Solara is weirdly quiet and sterile..no impact.

It’s a shame because I don’t think any of the songs are bad. The lighter songs all have moments where they could’ve gone heavy.. I quite like Alienation (yes) but it misses so many opportunities be a good or great song.

A good producer would get them to push this stuff further and say go big here and shred boys...but I don’t know if Billy would go for it. The tour was good but it was for fans, in a safe space.. I think really he finds rock music and guitars a bit embarrassing these days

[DaveKShape]

Corgan can't or chooses not to write songs from the heart anymore.

[Forgotten Child]

https://media.giphy.com/media/dEdmW17JnZhiU/giphy.gif

[glass85]

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

obviously you have never listened to B O R I S

This Boris?
http://i68.tinypic.com/2d77cdz.jpg

[T&T]

it's a dad band that prioritizes it's family. what did you expect?

[VoxUpDoc]

Corgan views his audience with the same respect Trump does.

He's producing music that he thinks the masses want to hear, because he has such a low opinion of them, or rather a high opinion of himself - he's in denial that his stubborn artistic direction is what has caused his previous dozen or so projects to fail.

He keeps tinkering with the formula without changing the fundamental problems with his current singing, songwriting and production style. He must genuinely think they sound good, despite the overwhelming evidence that he needs to sing and produce his vocals EXACTLY LIKE THE MID-90'S OTHERWISE NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR THEM. If you have a terrible fucking singing voice YOU DON'T MIX IT HIGH ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE YOU FUCKING CLOWN. Marchin' proves he could even do the old voice if he wanted, but he wants to "sing good". Eurgh.

It's not that Billy doesn't know how to recapture the old sound, it's that he doesn't want to, he's convinced himself that the audience don't want it. In his head he's competing with Kanye, Lady Gaga or Arianna Grande rather than alt rock bands or his former self. He's deluded and it stems from deep-seated narcissism, egotism and psychological issues he has not resolved. And now he's given up and cashing in, because he's treated so many of his colleagues badly, even Jimmy and James only interact with him on a business level rather than a creative one.

As Sharon Osborne once said, "Life is too short for Billy Corgan". He has reaped what he has sowed.

[MonumentsRocks]

You might be right that his song writing has less raw appeal than it used to, but it's impossible to say for sure whether it's that, or if it's his public persona causing people to decide they don't want to like the music because they already didn't like who made it. The general masses probably don't really know or care about Corgan's personality, because what he says and does doesn't get that much attention anymore, but it is well known among people who follow music news, so the elite group of influencers who take new music and put it out there for others to hear are aware that Corgan is an asshole, and likely choose not to let it pass. He could write great songs (I think he still does), it won't matter. If he did something genuinely charitable, he could turn that around, but his acting like a prototypical Trump lately assures that won't happen.

[themadcaplaughs]

It's a dud album because it seems Billy wrote and recorded it the same way he did with Teargarden, Oceania, and Monuments to an Elegy: just Billy recording an album with people who happened to be around at the time. Those people just happened to be Jimmy and James (if that makes sense). From all accounts we've seen from Instagram, Twitter, interviews, etc., James, Jeff, and Jimmy just came in and played to songs Corgan had already written and more or less "mapped out" before recording. That isn't to say Jimmy or James (or Rick Rubin for that matter) didn't make suggestions Billy followed, but it certainly wasn't like the bad from 1988-2000 where, even though Billy wrote the songs, the other members had a definite impact on the final sound by being there at all stages or rehearsing and recording. That was were the "magic" originated.

Honestly, Zeitgiest and Oceania were probably more "collaborative" efforts than this album. From all accounts, Jimmy and Billy worked on Zeitgeist together from the beginning, and although the Oceania lineup probably didn't have a whole lot of sway over Corgan's decisions, it was at least a band situation where everyone was involved in the songs from the get go. Everything about this new album just seems like leftovers from 2014/2015 with some Chamberlin drumming and occasional Iha leads.

[MonumentsRocks]

Originally Posted by themadcaplaughs

It's a dud album because it seems Billy wrote and recorded it the same way he did with Teargarden, Oceania, and Monuments to an Elegy: just Billy recording an album with people who happened to be around at the time.

That's how it has always been, though. James has writing credits on less than 1% of the songs they've recorded, and the best that's been said about D'arcy is that she would offer dirty looks if she didn't like something.

Another celeb that Billy reminds me of is Rosanne Barr, the similar politics, and the smug self absurdness. I don't think Billy is in a mental space to make the sort of music he used to make. He's admitted that he used music as a coping mechanism, and clearly he has less to cope with now, or at least he found ways that are more convenient for him that don't involve musical product. Even though I am not and never was never a rock star, I've written songs my whole life, and even I've felt the loss of muse as I find more straight forward ways to sort emotional issues out.

Most rock stars tapper off after in their 30's, and especially in their 50's, and truth be told, I think Billy is doing better work than most musicians who remain in the business as long as he has. One aspect of his of his song writing is that he employs complex and unique chord changes, Silver Sometimes ghosts is paint by the numbers, but for most of his output since the reformation there has been a healthy amount of originality in his music. He hasn't been accused of plagiarism lately, he's coming up with fresh content, like it or not.

[johncg]

Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks

That's how it has always been, though. James has writing credits on less than 1% of the songs they've recorded, and the best that's been said about D'arcy is that she would offer dirty looks if she didn't like something.

Another celeb that Billy reminds me of is Rosanne Barr, the similar politics, and the smug self absurdness. I don't think Billy is in a mental space to make the sort of music he used to make. He's admitted that he used music as a coping mechanism, and clearly he has less to cope with now, or at least he found ways that are more convenient for him that don't involve musical product. Even though I am not and never was never a rock star, I've written songs my whole life, and even I've felt the loss of muse as I find more straight forward ways to sort emotional issues out.

Most rock stars tapper off after in their 30's, and especially in their 50's, and truth be told, I think Billy is doing better work than most musicians who remain in the business as long as he has. One aspect of his of his song writing is that he employs complex and unique chord changes, Silver Sometimes ghosts is paint by the numbers, but for most of his output since the reformation there has been a healthy amount of originality in his music. He hasn't been accused of plagiarism lately, he's coming up with fresh content, like it or not.

Tapper off? How bout FAPPER off?

[ilikeplanets]

Not enough "aungst"

It's hard (not impossible) for men in their 50s to please fans that loved a band the way they sounded 30 years ago.

I don't hate Shiny, but it doesn't have the it factor, and I don't see any subsequent efforts turning into SD 2.0. Billy straight up told us that ain't going to happen...but I believe the majority of the original fanbase finds Shiny and its recent predecessors lame because that early sound is what they want to hear. Stuck in the pass, for better or worse.

[Mals Marola]

Originally Posted by Ihaguitar

It's probably a combination of D'Arcy, he's getting older, he started believing in God, Linda Strawberry hanging around, not singing the same.

basically this

the God thing really fucked him up as an artist, fast