Mike Pence and Hamilton

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Perhaps we have a different understanding of the word "hamfisted".

The day Brexit news broke, I went to see a Sydney Symphony concert at the Opera House.

By complete coincidence, the concert was was called "Channel Crossings" with half the programme consisting of French composers and the other half, English.

Before the orchestra began playing again after the break, the leader/concertmaster, made a short announcement about a small programme of chamber music that would be played in the Northern Foyer, following the performance.

He made pointed comments about how some of the music in the coming half would be European, and some...not European. And then said something about those wanting to make a brisk exist or "brexit" being welcome to descend into the depths..of the basement carpark.

Everyone knew exactly where he and the orchestra stood on the issue, without him being so vulgar as spelling it out, word by excruciating word.

I guess we just have different ideas of what hamfisted means. To me, hamfisted means without any sophistication, nuance, intelligence.

It's just so bloody American, to make a statement in that setting without any kind of appeal to the artistic standards that were involved in the actual performance.

the example you gave is nothing like the two sentences uttered during the curtain call of the Hamilton musical

hamfisted; awkward or clumsy

Those sentences were not awkward or clumsy

do you know anything about the musical "Hamilton?" It's an intentional racial and musical mash up that uses the words of the American (white male) founders regarding the ideals of American society and make them relevant to the public today. All of the public. All of the diversity of our republic. The entire

Their statement was brief, respectful and completely and utterly in line with the content of the ART that they were presenting.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Yes, I read it. I agree, it's not really breaking the fourth wall, but it's something like that.

Whatever. I agree that it's a non event and probably a deliberate distraction.

I just didn't like it and I think it was hamfisted. Pence is a jerk and a dumbass but this gesture was sort of the equivalent of making a Facebook post. OK, you don't like Pence's rhetoric and attitude, we get it. Great. That's for weighing in.

I agree. It wasn't an appropriate forum to be lecturing the guy at. It's not a performers job to cast judgement on the attendees. Totally unprofessional.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by Poots

Except they had just said those things in an artistic way through the play or musical or whatever then the guy came out and actually said it directly to Pence, which was clumsy and awkward. It's like when you watch the DVD commentary and the director tells you what is happening on the screen and what it is supposed to mean. We get it. There is no need to spell it out so... hamfistedly.

Exactly. I think it was executed to act as a publicity stunt for the musical... Definitely awkward

[ohnoitsbonnie]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

I agree. It wasn't an appropriate forum to be lecturing the guy at. It's not a performers job to cast judgement on the attendees. Totally unprofessional.

Eh it's their show. Unprofessional is something different entirely. Hamilton is 100% cringe though. Mike Pence deserves all he gets.

[redbreegull]

vixnix has some kind of subconscious affection for authoritarianism.

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by vixnix

I guess we just have different ideas of what hamfisted means. To me, hamfisted means without any sophistication, nuance, intelligence.

It's just so bloody American, to make a statement in that setting without any kind of appeal to the artistic standards that were involved in the actual performance.

Just more boring rhetoric. Snore. Hamfisted.

"You know, I would had re-evaluated the policies I support that pertain to racial, religious, and sexual minorities, had you guys criticized them in a more subtle, artistic manner. I'm always happy to hear from the citizens I represent, so long as the will of the people is communicated in ways that make me meditate on the intersection of art and politics, instead of just hitting me over the head with what Americans' opinions are. I don't know, the manner in which your cast communicated to me that my policies are shit was just kinda cringey. Like, okay, maybe my policies are harmful toward many social groups, but couldn't you have told me in a way that didn't just hit me over the head with the obvious? Like, in a way that would make me understand how shit my policies are, without outright saying it?"
--Mike Pence

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

vixnix has some kind of subconscious affection for authoritarianism.

perhaps. and you have a subconscious affection for hamfisted speeches?

[Mals Marola]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Yes, I read it. I agree, it's not really breaking the fourth wall, but it's something like that.

what the fuck? it's nothing like that
the play was over

in any case i think in this case it came off more as a group of people genuinely worried about the shit Pence has been proposing rather than any kind of "liberty" posturing or whatever
it would have been less responsible if they hadn't used their platform to single the guy out, in that instance. of course he deserved it

[killtrocity]

What the fuck do you expect when you go to a broadway musical, as a person who has signed discriminatory legislation against gay folks?

If you sign a piece of legislation banning incest, I bet you are not going to receive a very warm reception at the next tractor pull you attend. Not a perfect analogy for a variety of reasons but let's be serious.

You think GWB would be welcomed to a Marilyn Manson or Leftover Crack show with open arms? I thought we, as a nation, were supposed to "tell it like it is" now that Trump is president, so why are we beating around the bush about this?

[ohnoitsbonnie]

Yeah people can argue it was in poor taste or whatever (although, ya know, it was said eloquently, clearly and without violence) but the cast of Hamilton did nothing wrong. Mike Pence has signicantly affected the lives of many and should not expect privacy as a vice president. It's not even really privacy. It's not as if someone asked why his daugther had an abortion or something crass like that. They commented on public policy.

[Disco King]

Vice-president-elects are becoming persecuted in the United States these days. They can't just support shitty policies in peace. These dumb citizens think they have the right to harass them about their policies. Pence was trying to enjoy a musical, and these people had the audacity to pry into his private life. What if Pence asked you about your job?

Granted, your job may not be in crafting public policy, but still. Talking to political officials is just, like, lame and cringey. Like, it's like one of those scenes in a sappy movie where somebody says something and stuff happens and you can tell it's all scripted and fake. Like, you want a cookie for exercising your democratic right to address a public official and make your thoughts known? That's, like, exactly the same as having a bumper sticker or something. It's, like, just so silly. And I find myself more interested in discussing how I think it just seems kinda like pointless and stuff instead of addressing the content of the message.

[vixnix]

I agree that he should be made to feel uncomfortable in as many public places as possible.

I just think their attempt at it failed, he saw it coming, probably doesn't think any differently about anything.

All that's happened is that a bunch of people who already agree with their sentiments, still agree.

A speech designed to make him look like a total asshat if he got up and left as it was going on, full of thinly veiled contempt, masked by fake deference, loaded with subtlety and humour, would have been more entertaining and thought provoking. Something for the history books.

But no. It was just more of the self-righteous, stand-and-deliver, let-me-tell-you-about-my-values crap.

Any idiot can do that. Trump and Pence can do that.

Nobody should be sinking to that level!

[smashingjj]

are you being sarcastic?

[vixnix]

No. I'm not a Trump or Pence supporter, I think both are terrible.

But the speech made me cringe.

[duovamp]

Nothing you ever do is cringe or hamfisted.

How are those trombone lessons working out btw?

[The Omega Concern]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

the whole thing is being used as a smokescreen to obscure the Trump U settlement. how far in advance do you suppose Pence had those tix?

Yah, cuz, the Trump U settlement if focused on by the masses would halt his waltz into the white house. got it.


You commies need some work on your conspiracy theories.

[The Omega Concern]

If Trump U is so bad, how about that Clinton Foundation? How can you possibly think you have any shred of credibility left in your poli-opinions when you completely ignore the Elite Globalist Billionaire slush fund that is the Clinton Global Initiative and instead look to a $25 million class-extortion suit.

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by duovamp

Nothing you ever do is cringe or hamfisted.

How are those trombone lessons working out btw?

Pretty well. My son is away on an overnight trip in the country, with his school band, actually.

It's a group of 10/11/12 year olds but because schools in our area have such strong band programmes, they play better than a lot of high school bands.

Kids can't join the band programme at our school unless they can commit to two 1 hour rehearsals and a 30 minute private lesson per week. Plus band camp, at the start of the year.

It's expensive - lessons are $400/term (4 terms), band fees are about $500/year, instrument hire is $200/year, band camp is $300/year.

A lot of country kids don't end up joining anything like that, so the idea is that the country tours by city schools inspire young musicians who don't yet know how well a school aged kid can play.

My son has joined the jazz band, which is the elite group, and they have one extra 1 hour rehearsal per week.

They did a 30 minute set at a public school nearby, and played show tunes, soundtrack-medleys from Aladdin and Pirates of the Caribbean, Brahms' Hungarian March, and a few other things. They're really good.

So he was pretty excited - they're playing a few concerts at country schools, and attending a music workshop at a country high school, and then going to a high wire/climbing place.

So....they're going well.

Good thing I'm not one of those cultural cringe parents who lets their kids quit everything when they "don't like it anymore" and encourage my kids to persevere through tedium, frustration and unhappiness to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

In this case, musicianship, technical ability, camaraderie...

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by ohnoitsbonnie

Eh it's their show. Unprofessional is something different entirely. Hamilton is 100% cringe though. Mike Pence deserves all he gets.

I don't like Pence as much as the next guy and was frankly pretty bummed out when Trump announced him as his running mate but even so....

Pence was there with his daughter and niece. Not a good time to start picking a bone with someone when there's children present. Just lacks the kind of class that you'd expect at a performance like that.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Pretty well. My son is away on an overnight trip in the country, with his school band, actually.

It's a group of 10/11/12 year olds but because schools in our area have such strong band programmes, they play better than a lot of high school bands.

Kids can't join the band programme at our school unless they can commit to two 1 hour rehearsals and a 30 minute private lesson per week. Plus band camp, at the start of the year.

It's expensive - lessons are $400/term (4 terms), band fees are about $500/year, instrument hire is $200/year, band camp is $300/year.

A lot of country kids don't end up joining anything like that, so the idea is that the country tours by city schools inspire young musicians who don't yet know how well a school aged kid can play.

My son has joined the jazz band, which is the elite group, and they have one extra 1 hour rehearsal per week.

They did a 30 minute set at a public school nearby, and played show tunes, soundtrack-medleys from Aladdin and Pirates of the Caribbean, Brahms' Hungarian March, and a few other things. They're really good.

So he was pretty excited - they're playing a few concerts at country schools, and attending a music workshop at a country high school, and then going to a high wire/climbing place.

So....they're going well.

Good thing I'm not one of those cultural cringe parents who lets their kids quit everything when they "don't like it anymore" and encourage my kids to persevere through tedium, frustration and unhappiness to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

In this case, musicianship, technical ability, camaraderie...

That sounds really nice. Getting children into music can't be seen as anything b ut a positive as far as I'm concerned.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by vixnix

No. I'm not a Trump or Pence supporter, I think both are terrible.

But the speech made me cringe.

two sentences is not a speech

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

Pence was there with his daughter and niece. Not a good time to start picking a bone with someone when there's children present. Just lacks the kind of class that you'd expect at a performance like that.

you mean the kind of class it takes to support electroshock conversion therapy which drives children to suicide?

[redbreegull]

lol I mean maybe they should have just made fun of a disabled guy instead cause that's totally ok

[redbreegull]

a class act:

Time – Pence almost kept me from my dying wife

When a federal trial court ordered Indiana to recognize our marriage on an emergency basis because of Niki’s declining health, Governor Pence immediately appealed. He wouldn’t allow the state to protect even one family with a dying parent—my family—while the court case made its way through the legal system.

[fuzzyroes]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

lol I mean maybe they should have just made fun of a disabled guy instead cause that's totally ok

Get off your PC high-horse man. IIRC the "disabled guy" was ripping Trump to pieces and he simply poked a little fun at his expense in return. I'm not saying it's a nice thing to do, but it's the old adage of if you can't take it, don't dish it out.

[fuzzyroes]

I would have taken the high-road. But I'd be lying if I said that I didn't think it was hilarious that Trump didn't.

[duovamp]

Trump was right to immediately regret picking Pence.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

I would have taken the high-road. But I'd be lying if I said that I didn't think it was hilarious that Trump didn't.

I guess jesus need to shit is right. you are a pretty shitty human being. your friendly demeanor doesn't erase your total lack of empathy for people unlike yourself and your willingness to play with people's lives like a game because you see the world and politics as one big sports event.

[fuzzyroes]

lmao

RBG's in full meltdown mode!

Dude, utilize Google: there might be a local Cry-In for you to attend

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by fuzzyroes

Get off your PC high-horse man. IIRC the "disabled guy" was ripping Trump to pieces and he simply poked a little fun at his expense in return. I'm not saying it's a nice thing to do, but it's the old adage of if you can't take it, don't dish it out.

Kovaleski was not "ripping Trump to pieces." He simply corrected him. Trump claimed that "thousands" of Arabs were seen dancing and celebrating the attacks on 9/11. Being pressed on this lie, Trump's campaign scrambled to find any source they could that would support Trump's claim, and settled on an article written by Kovaleski that said nothing of the sort. Kovaleski denied ever writing that thousands of Arabs were ever sighted celebrating on the day of the attacks, and that pissed Trump off enough to mimic his disability.

Even were Kovaleski to have "ripped Trump to pieces," he would be totally justified in doing so, as he caught Trump in a blatant lie. The fact that you think being criticized legitimizes Trump making fun of somebody's disability speaks volumes. You think Trump is perfectly justified in making attacks on anybody who says things that he doesn't like, and that anybody who contradicts whom deserves these attacks. You equate somebody questioning the truth of somebody else's words with somebody ridiculing another person's illness. And what's more, you maintain that this is fair and justifiable, while also maintaining that it crosses a line for a citizen to publicly express discontent with the policies of a political figure, even if they use polite words to do it.

Fuzzy, can you please actually consider what you've typed? If you're a rational person, you have to recognize that everything you're saying is blatant bullshit. I'm trying to tell you this in a polite way, because I know that if I just insult your intelligence again, you'll immediately go on the defensive and evade all my points. Can you please explain why you have such a love of authority, that you think it is inappropriate for people to criticize authority figures, and cheer on authority figures who demean anyone who dare call them out on anything? I mean, even the average Trump voter is capable of criticizing him, while you are like some sort of cult member who has a pathological need to rationalize everything he does and never question him. Why?