Wasn't the lead single for Day for Night supposed to be out by now?

[Ram27]

The parts that didn't have too many notes sounded nice

[T&T]

Originally Posted by Forgotten Child

I'd love to hear Jeff writing more for the Pumpkins. This jam sounds amazing...

is this song better then Roustabout?
I should start a poll thread to get to the bottom of this.

which one would Baby AJ prefer?

[Forgotten Child]

1. Yes.
2. This one.

[enthusaroo]

Originally Posted by T&T

is this song better then Roustabout?
I should start a poll thread to get to the bottom of this.

which one would Baby AJ prefer?

Baby AJ prefers Justin Bieber

[enthusaroo]

Originally Posted by T&T

is this song better then Roustabout?
I should start a poll thread to get to the bottom of this.

which one would Baby AJ prefer?

Wow... that jam is better actually than anything from Billy post-2008. Gossamer was probably the last song from Billy that kicked actual ass.

[HereIsNoWhy4U]

Adore should've/could've been:

Side A:

To Sheila
Once Upon A Time
Czarina
Blissed & Gone
Annie-Dog
Shame
Behold! The Night Mare
For Martha
Blank Page
The Beginning Is The End Is The Beginning

Side B:

Ava Adore
Perfect
Daphne Descends
Saturnine
Eye
Tear
Cash Car Star
Pug
The End is the Beginning is the End

[amoergosum]

Originally Posted by Forgotten Child

I'd love to hear Jeff writing more for the Pumpkins. This jam sounds amazing...

...
>>>



P.S: ...it did sound very nice.

[Ram27]

Originally Posted by HereIsNoWhy4U

Adore should've/could've been:

Side A:

To Sheila
Once Upon A Time
Czarina
Blissed & Gone
Annie-Dog
Shame
Behold! The Night Mare
For Martha
Blank Page
The Beginning Is The End Is The Beginning

Side B:

Ava Adore
Perfect
Daphne Descends
Saturnine
Eye
Tear
Cash Car Star
Pug
The End is the Beginning is the End

If Summer was on Adore that'd be a really nice break from the dark mood of it

[dreams of glass]

Originally Posted by HereIsNoWhy4U

Adore should've/could've been:

Side A:

To Sheila
Once Upon A Time
Czarina
Blissed & Gone
Annie-Dog
Shame
Behold! The Night Mare
For Martha
Blank Page
The Beginning Is The End Is The Beginning

Side B:

Ava Adore
Perfect
Daphne Descends
Saturnine
Eye
Tear
Cash Car Star
Pug
The End is the Beginning is the End

I can't help but feel you put Eye and Tear right next to each other, because the names. C'mon, you did that , right?

[HereIsNoWhy4U]

Originally Posted by dreams of glass

I can't help but feel you put Eye and Tear right next to each other, because the names. C'mon, you did that , right?

Yes. But I think subconsciously I was going for the whole "I wrote 'Tear' for David Lynch but he didn't like it so I showed him 'Eye' instead".

I never quite got why he never even considered putting 'Eye', 'The End/Beginning is the....' on 'Adore'. Just because those songs were in movies they were still from those years. The lack of those songs I think confused listeners because 'Adore' in general is such a unique and odd fusion of genres. Nobody expected the acoustics because it couldn't have been and wasn't promoted in that way. On the other hand, slap some 'Saturnine' and 'Cash Car Star' on there and he could've made a kind of 'Kid A' in a weird sense.

If 'Adore' had been successful, Corgan would probably still be a huge rockstar. But streaks have to end I guess.

[redbreegull]

Eye and TEITBITE could have faced licensing problems. But more likely and I agree with the call if this was the case, no one saw virtue in sticking two soundtrack songs on an album when they had enough material to not do that. It would seem a bit cheap to have tacked on two songs from films for star points That's more 2015 Billy style than 1998 Billy style.

I don't really think anything could have cemented SP as some longterm global rock machine... they were never that kind of band. They were always a little too out there for your average rock fan and their huge success 93-97 mostly has to do with just being at the right place at the right time IMO. Changing the tracklist on Adore wouldn't have done much to sell more albums... the alt rock train had sailed by 1998. The cultural dominance of bands like SP was overturned by dance pop artists.

and just personally I really think splitting Adore into a heavy and a soft side would do a lot of damage to the album. Generally squishing all similar sounding songs together on an album is not a good idea, and especially when you are making that kind of list and realize you have to bring in lesser songs like Cash Car Star to make it work... nah, Adore is good the way it is. Billy's shitty, bitter attitude towards the masses losing interest in Adore was the fucking problem, not the album itself. If he had focused on how amazing the album is and the real fans who stuck with him and loved the band for evolving and going to a new place, yeah things might have turned out different. Perhaps every release since then wouldn't have been a blatant attempt to recapture the Pumpkins' "glory." Perhaps he would have gone on to be a more respected and matured artist who appreciates his time in the sun but is now happy to keep innovating and making meaningful music for the fans who have stuck with him the whole time regardless of the audience size...

but instead he threw a hissy fit, invented a complete bullshit narrative about how it is his fans who can't accept change and not him, and has released like 6 fucking albums trying to emulate peak Pumpkins.

[fuzzyroes]

I think if the re-issue version of LMGTWTY had it's corners softened a bit that it could have been a great transitional hit. The maturation from the gen-x/alt-nation fad that was on it's way out... But instead he kinda hopped on the Manson bandwagon (atleast imagery wise) and people just weren't having it.

You're probably right when you mention that SP had already overstayed it's welcome near the end of the MCIS cycle, but then you release something abrasive like the ava-adore video and go on in interviews about how "techno was the next big thing" and it just completely turns people off.

Of course Billy was correct about rock being dead and that "techno" based music was the future- the only problem with that Billy always raised the "alt-rock/gen x" flag.... The flag of "not giving a shit about what's popular and doing what's in your heart"... So the fact that he was explaining to people about jumping ship due to what sells made him seem like a total jack-ass.

[fuzzyroes]

I mean the rhetoric of the alt-rock scene was "this is my true expression, and I don't give a fuck about fitting in"... So to milk that to super-stardom and then say "ahhhh that shit's not popular anymore, technos gonna be the next big selling point so we're gonna start taking that angle" just devalued any of the message that he put out before.

Of course we know that's just par for the course of who Billy is now... But at the time it was the first and biggest deal breaker for people.

[HereIsNoWhy4U]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

Eye and TEITBITE could have faced licensing problems. But more likely and I agree with the call if this was the case, no one saw virtue in sticking two soundtrack songs on an album when they had enough material to not do that. It would seem a bit cheap to have tacked on two songs from films for star points That's more 2015 Billy style than 1998 Billy style.

I don't really think anything could have cemented SP as some longterm global rock machine... they were never that kind of band. They were always a little too out there for your average rock fan and their huge success 93-97 mostly has to do with just being at the right place at the right time IMO. Changing the tracklist on Adore wouldn't have done much to sell more albums... the alt rock train had sailed by 1998. The cultural dominance of bands like SP was overturned by dance pop artists.

and just personally I really think splitting Adore into a heavy and a soft side would do a lot of damage to the album. Generally squishing all similar sounding songs together on an album is not a good idea, and especially when you are making that kind of list and realize you have to bring in lesser songs like Cash Car Star to make it work... nah, Adore is good the way it is. Billy's shitty, bitter attitude towards the masses losing interest in Adore was the fucking problem, not the album itself. If he had focused on how amazing the album is and the real fans who stuck with him and loved the band for evolving and going to a new place, yeah things might have turned out different. Perhaps every release since then wouldn't have been a blatant attempt to recapture the Pumpkins' "glory." Perhaps he would have gone on to be a more respected and matured artist who appreciates his time in the sun but is now happy to keep innovating and making meaningful music for the fans who have stuck with him the whole time regardless of the audience size...

but instead he threw a hissy fit, invented a complete bullshit narrative about how it is his fans who can't accept change and not him, and has released like 6 fucking albums trying to emulate peak Pumpkins.

Well, I just thought in terms of records like Mechanical Animal having commercial success, which was electronica and hard-rock at the same time. I never felt 'Cash Car Star' (especially the Adore version), or 'Saturnine' were sub-par songs when compared to songs like 'Once Upon A Time' or Apples + Oranjes. Hell, Corgan even said that the execs told him 'Cash Car Star' would be an alternative hit, and this time I believe him. He left those songs out because he wanted to be far out and try to create this new landscape with the whole acoustic/electronic sound, which obviously only a few people got at the time and left people confused. Then two years later he wanted to redeem all the confusion with 'Machina'. Adore could've been a harder album I think, without actually compromising the sensibilities the album we now know as 'Adore' has.

[TheAeroplane]

Originally Posted by HereIsNoWhy4U

Adore should've/could've been:

Side A:

To Sheila
Once Upon A Time
Czarina
Blissed & Gone
Annie-Dog
Shame
Behold! The Night Mare
For Martha
Blank Page
The Beginning Is The End Is The Beginning

Side B:

Ava Adore
Perfect
Daphne Descends
Saturnine
Eye
Tear
Cash Car Star
Pug
The End is the Beginning is the End

This would make a great thread imo. Adore is without a doubt the topic that pisses me off the most about TSP. It could have been the greatest SP album. The songs were amazing, especially when you heard them live. If Billy had used that sound (a more real sound instead of the horrendous robotic poorly mixed sound we actually got in Adore) it would have been a fucking timeless classic rock album. Also if Jimmy hadn't been fired. His absence was extremely obvious in the first ten seconds of Ava Adore. To Sheila was a great opening to the album and might be the only song that should remain untouched.

Here's my list:
To Sheila
Ava Adore
Daphne Descends
Tear
Crestfallen (greatest song in the album when heard live)
Nightmare
Blank page
Martha
Saturnine
Blissed and Gone
Czarina
Speed Kills
Once in a while
TBITEITB

[Bomb The Moon]

Originally Posted by Ram27

If Summer was on Adore that'd be a really nice break from the dark mood of it

If Summer didn't exist at all, it would be one less crappy Iha song to skip, while I'm trying to enjoy the Smashing Pumpkins.

[sjpaterra]

I PLAY YAMAHA

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by TheAeroplane

The songs were amazing, especially when you heard them live. If Billy had used that sound (a more real sound instead of the horrendous robotic poorly mixed sound we actually got in Adore) it would have been a fucking timeless classic rock album. Also if Jimmy hadn't been fired. His absence was extremely obvious in the first ten seconds of Ava Adore. To Sheila was a great opening to the album and might be the only song that should remain untouched.

[MyKeyZ]

Adore is great as it is and should remain untouched. Adore is an amazing album, just behind Mellon Collie at the top.

The live band during Adore era wasn't that great. Three percussionists couldn't even come close to matching JC. Listening to some of the soundboards during that time, they sounded all over the place with a drummer and two percussionists playing sloppily and many times not even in sync. They just sounded like a mess, especially when they tried to go off and jam on the fly. There were a couple of great moments (Blank Page), but those were few and far in between. Not Mike Byrne bad, but not great either. Kenny Aronoff could have been better on his own without the additional percussionists. Matt Walker was a better replacement drummer.

[redbreegull]

I think both Adore and the Adore tour were great. The fact that the songs took on such different life live is just another part of what made this band so great.

[Grox]

SP could have succeeded well into the 2000s. Foo Fighters, Manson, all the nu metal bands? Rock was not dead, but Billy couldn't live with the band getting smaller. it either had to get bigger or die. His real mistake with Adore was cutting LMGTWTY from the tracklist at the last fucking second - song was radio gold and could've been a hit along the lines of Matchbox 20 or something. They could've survived.

[amoergosum]

Originally Posted by Grox

His real mistake with Adore was cutting LMGTWTY from the tracklist at the last fucking second - song was radio gold and could've been a hit along the lines of Matchbox 20 or something. They could've survived.

>>>

Billy:
"I had every intention of putting it on the record, it was mastered with the record, it was going to be the last song in the sequence. And the true story is, I handed in the record to the record company. And I get the call, they want to make ‘Let Me Give the World to You’ the first single. And I was like, ‘Hell, no.’ And the only way I could stop them was to take it off the record. Someone asked me about this, ‘It sounds like it could have been a hit song at that time, so why take it off the record?’ And I said, ‘Because I spent a whole f—ing year trying to make this avant-garde thing.’ ‘Perfect’ or ‘Ava Adore’ were more representative [of the album], and now we’re gonna release the song with the dry, milquetoast production. And it isn’t even as avant-garde as the stuff on Mellon Collie, much less Adore! I didn’t want to step back to simple pop [on the single], and then try to sell this avant-garde record! It wasn’t that I hated it, or even that I hated what Rick had done. He did a great job. It was more that I didn’t want to blow up everything I’d done for this one song. So the song had to go. And in the basement it went, for sixteen or eighteen years."

[Ram27]

I can understand that. It's a boring song production wise compared to the others, and then even on Machina it just feels like the same thing looped for 4 minutes.

He was going to run the band into the ground anyway

[crabshack]

In what world is ava adore considered avant garde?

[redbreegull]

Ava Adore is a great song, and it's also the most radio friendly song to come from that era. The hook in the chorus is killer. The problem was just that their time had passed.

also we waited fucking years to hear the legendary Adore LMGTWTY and it's nothing special at all. pretty disappoint

[crabshack]

I wasn't around for the release of Adore but I like LMGTWTY more than Ava Adore. Ava seems like it was chosen to the be the lead off single for the exact same reasons that he didn't want LMGTWTY to be.

Ava Adore is almost like a bait and switch. Doesn't sit well with the rest of the CD to me. No wonder the fans were disappointed with the CD.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by crabshack

I wasn't around for the release of Adore but I like LMGTWTY more than Ava Adore. Ava seems like it was chosen to the be the lead off single for the exact same reasons that he didn't want LMGTWTY to be.

Ava Adore is almost like a bait and switch. Doesn't sit well with the rest of the CD to me. No wonder the fans were disappointed with the CD.

only stupid fans, who Billy unfortunately decided were all of his fans because he's been bending over backwards to try and prove himself to these rat in a cage idiots ever since

[redbreegull]

someone pointed out recently, maybe in this thread, that since 1979 Billy has repeatedly tried to recreate the success of that song by picking similar songs as singles. Perfect, Try Try Try, That's the Way, Run 2 Me all have the same kind of keyboard and acoustic guitar easy listening sickly sweet pop thing going on, whereas before none of his singles were the little bouncy songs. LMGTWTY as a single would just have been another attempt to cash in the same thing. There's not much going on there, it's just not very engaging IMO. I can't imagine that song doing any better than Ava Adore, which itself is a pop song, just a much better and more sophisticated one. I also take all this shit about how the record company wanted the song and everyone told him it would be such a huge hit with a grain of salt. How many fucking times has Billy Corgan spewed bs about how other musicians and his record company think what he is doing is the best thing he's done since SD and blah blah it's so much bullshit, I just have to shrug it off.

[T&T]

any minute now.



Remember doing purple Baby AJ? I'm surprised billy managed the rebrand to MrChooChoo

[bright_doom]

Whatever happened to crabshack? I remember back in the old days when he had a man riding a motorcycle as his avatar and his Location was "beep beep"

2016 nostalgia hits me hard.