|
|
Register | Netphoria's Amazon.com Link | Members List |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
07-23-2009, 02:06 PM | #121 |
Master of Karate and Friendship
Location: in your butt
Posts: 72,975
|
Yes, a slave class that helps some unscrupulous business people. Is that what we want?
|
|
07-23-2009, 02:46 PM | #122 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 7,240
|
Quote:
|
|
|
07-23-2009, 03:14 PM | #123 |
Master of Karate and Friendship
Location: in your butt
Posts: 72,975
|
|
|
07-23-2009, 03:18 PM | #124 |
has great self of steam.
Location: SECRET OBAMA FUCKDEN RENDEZVOUS
Posts: 24,305
|
|
|
07-23-2009, 03:38 PM | #125 | ||||
Minion of Satan
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 7,240
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think the government is going to force providers to accept government health care. I think they'll let that all take care of itself. Government health care gets enacted. Lots of people drop off the private insurance rolls as companies shed employer based health care to cut costs, leaving fewer people to share the burden amongst the privately insured, thus driving premiums higher. The government dicks around providers like it always has, causing providers to lean on the privately insured even more in order to eke out some sort of compensation, driving premiums yet higher and eventually forcing more people off of private insurance. That leads to insurance companies going under, forcing more people to the government teat. And then providers eventually have to come crawling back to the government and submit to whatever paltry compensation they can get from them since the private option has been priced out of existence. Quote:
Last edited by Corganist : 07-23-2009 at 03:52 PM. |
||||
|
07-23-2009, 05:03 PM | #126 | |||
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
|
Quote:
Same thing. I'm not aware of any data that definitively shows that people on private insurance are any better off than those on medicare. I've read implications of the opposite actually. Quote:
So, naturally, congress, even the democrats in congress, is well to the right of public opinion on single-payer. There are many safeguards being built-in to prevent a trojan horse scenario (e.g., companies cannot shed their current private provider without proving severe financial hardship, reimbursement rates must stay in the same ballpark as average rates by private insurers, etc.). Actually, many lefties are worried that there are too many safeguards, to the point that the public plan will be too weak and whither away. That is probably more likely right now than a public plan that will destroy the private insurers. Then again, I don't necessarily see something wrong with a public plan forcing private insurance companies out of business if they simply can't keep up. The goal here is to provide universal quality care and a decent cost. If the public plan can do that better than a private plan, so be it. Let's put them both out there and let them compete. Quote:
But I think the exact opposite here. |
|||
|
07-23-2009, 05:19 PM | #127 |
Banned
Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship.
Posts: 39,439
|
|
|
07-23-2009, 06:28 PM | #128 | |||
Minion of Satan
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 7,240
|
It's mostly anecdotal. It's what I'm told by family members and other people I know who work on the provider side of the medical profession. I'll try to find something more concrete to back that up.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
|
07-23-2009, 06:39 PM | #129 | |
Minion of Satan
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 7,240
|
Quote:
I predicted (an optimistic) 7-5 for Arkansas last year. They went 5-7. I'm holding out for 8-4 this year if the ball bounces right. I may be a homer, but I don't think I'm so far gone yet that it's indicative of character flaws. |
|
|
07-23-2009, 09:55 PM | #130 | |||||||||||
Brazilian Blouselord
Location: heavy metal pool party
Posts: 35,781
|
Quote:
Quote:
People CHOOSE their leaders who VOTE. Votes of elected officials are those of the people who voted them into office. Democratic republics are built on this concept, and then, to prevent people from being abused (because security is a primary cause for the creation of society) and to prevent governments' laws from swinging back and forth too quickly (as would not be optimally productive) there is a safety net for the minority. You vote for someone you want to make important decisions, if that person gets a majority of the vote, he/she tries to satisfy those people, for the greater utility of that population. If the person for whom you voted loses, you still have some protection, but face it, unless you're a ridiculous moral absolutist, the fact of the matter is that society's current beliefs don't agree with yours and they should not be ruled by your tyrant as a minority. So, now that I've given you this lesson on how democratic republics work, let's then apply this simple reasoning to the situation above, okay? Can we do that? Do I need to hold your hand? Alright, let's go. You said people's lives get voted away. A citizen army has its own lives at stake. It will try not to needlessly put itself into harm's way. That means it has the incentive to not get thrown into combat, for it has its own personal agenda on the line. A citizen army will always consist entirely of citizens, that is every single member of it is also a member of that government's voting public. When you say other people's lives, clearly you don't realize that a private army's would not consist only of that nation's people. It would be a mercenary group. And from where? Why would not, say, the US hire Russian mercenaries to kill Pakistanis? And yet you tell me that a citizen army would control more largely the lives of foreigners all willy-nilly? The private system would almost always mean ONLY using foreigners to kill other foreigners, because that way they have no effect on votes, that is they can't vote themselves out of harm's way. Moreover, say the English government pays a French mercenary group to defend England against Germany. What stake does the French mercenary group have in seeing the job get done? What incentive do they have to get the job done? And what incentive do they have to not run off with England's money? And if they do run off with England's money, who is going to do something about it? Another mercenary group who could just as easily do the exact same thing? Where is the enforcement? There is none. This is all very, very simple scenario stuff, not even getting into complex contractual negotiations here. Mercenary groups, private armies, would become supra-national companies, and what would stop them from then taking over nations and becoming nations themselves? This is the best part of your logic, in my opinion. You don't see that this is how governments were started in the very first place! And yet you tell me that there would be victimization in my system, without remembering that you would be victimizing even more easily the lives of foreigners, and devaluing the ability of a population to defend itself, and it all hinges on what? Moral absolutism. You basically run into circles and circles around a tree until the leash gets tight enough to slam you right into it. But you call me a moron and tell me that I would victimize people, as the person whose army would have absolutely no incentive to exist in peacetime. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Here it is in the most plain terms. If private armies solved all conflicts, their market would disappear, and their business model would bring itself to an end. Private armies would make themselves obsolete if they solved the problem of war on earth. However, the more wars there are, the greater the demand for private armies. Well now they have the incentive to actually create war to maximize profit. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You need to understand that governments are just businesses with armies. Once you give a business an army, it can, and will, become its own government, seize its own land, and begin to evolve so that, in time, its people will demand certain things, like voting, and the process would just simply begin again where you now have a nation, with an army that is controlled by that nation and its people. You wish for a return to feudalism, which would eventually just move straight toward socializing as time progresses. The free market leads to its own end with any society. It is a self-destructive philosophy. I really should not have taken you seriously, and rather laughed that you actually responded and moved on with my life. However people like you who can't sit down and think for one second that you might be wrong come up with wild dream-like worlds because you're unwilling to question your own beliefs. If you questioned yourself you would soon realize how completely illegitimate they are and you would be able to move toward a more true vision of the universe. You can't reach the totally insane understanding of the world you have unless you never second guess yourself. Because I see absolutely no hint in your rant of placing your beliefs under any scrutiny. You just started with "free market only" and ran with it, never once assessing yourself along the way. This is how you come upon such illogical ideas, and this is why I do not respect you. |
|||||||||||
|
07-23-2009, 10:45 PM | #131 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
|
thread derailed
|
|
07-23-2009, 11:26 PM | #132 |
Banned
Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship.
Posts: 39,439
|
christalmighty
|
|
07-23-2009, 11:26 PM | #133 | |
Banned
Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship.
Posts: 39,439
|
Quote:
|
|
|
07-23-2009, 11:33 PM | #134 |
Brazilian Blouselord
Location: heavy metal pool party
Posts: 35,781
|
|
|
07-23-2009, 11:34 PM | #135 |
Brazilian Blouselord
Location: heavy metal pool party
Posts: 35,781
|
I'm turning into sleeper, except instead of the gen board and religion it's the politics board and the free market.
|
|
07-24-2009, 03:55 AM | #136 | |
Master of Karate and Friendship
Location: in your butt
Posts: 72,975
|
Quote:
They think you're a joke mind you. they just don't call you out on it |
|
|
07-24-2009, 03:56 AM | #137 |
Master of Karate and Friendship
Location: in your butt
Posts: 72,975
|
So you think the free market is evil.
Defend |
|
07-24-2009, 11:22 AM | #138 |
ghost
Location: @SactoMacto
Posts: 12,201
|
straw man.
the free market is amoral, not malevolent. subtle distinction. |
|
07-24-2009, 12:09 PM | #139 |
Brazilian Blouselord
Location: heavy metal pool party
Posts: 35,781
|
In cases of many utilities, it is simply not optimally productive. Efficient at times, in certain markets, sure. But efficiency isn't always productivity. For luxuries, meh, I have no serious problem with it, although what I'd support would not ever be a totally free market but more along the line of welfare capitalism.
|
|
07-24-2009, 12:51 PM | #140 | |
Banned
Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship.
Posts: 39,439
|
Quote:
i didn't slam jczeroman even though i disagree with everything he says. see the thing is he knows what he's talking about and isn't a completely uninformed, biased, ignorant fool. you're an utter douchebag and there's so much about corganist i don't like, primarily the way he argues about things. The Arkansas thing is silly but it's just one example of what a douchebag he is. And further, both of you don't have any respect for anyone with differing views but act all put upon because the two of you are utter douchebags and people don't respect you. Don't even start to pretend that you have any respect for people who don't agree with your half-baked "libertarianism". And you know what, yeah maybe I really dislike you both for your political views & how you present them since I think that's a far better reason to dislike someone then anything else. Last edited by Trotskilicious : 07-24-2009 at 12:58 PM. |
|
|
07-24-2009, 03:05 PM | #141 | |||||||||
Registered User
Location: In my house.
Posts: 14,464
|
Quote:
Otherwise, I am going to be as short as possible, as despite the length of your response, the content boils down to basic fallacies that have been dealt with by major political and philosophical thinkers. In other words, this portion of our discussion is where 99% of people ignore these big long, multi-quote statements. If I cared about what you thought, or believed that you could understand what I would write, then I would do you the service of responding in length (and refraining from name-calling). Goodness, even this is too long. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by jczeroman : 07-24-2009 at 03:11 PM. |
|||||||||
|
07-24-2009, 03:07 PM | #142 |
Brazilian Blouselord
Location: heavy metal pool party
Posts: 35,781
|
It's very pleasing to see that you could not give me any serious response to any single point.
|
|
07-24-2009, 04:37 PM | #143 |
Registered User
Location: In my house.
Posts: 14,464
|
|
|
07-24-2009, 08:40 PM | #144 |
Banned
Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship.
Posts: 39,439
|
|
|
07-24-2009, 08:41 PM | #145 |
Banned
Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship.
Posts: 39,439
|
|
|
07-24-2009, 08:43 PM | #146 |
Banned
Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship.
Posts: 39,439
|
i will say that it should be accepted that the welfare state is unsustainable. i don't think the solution lies in completely free market economics but I'm an historian not an economist.
|
|
07-24-2009, 08:50 PM | #147 |
NO FATS
Location: NO FEMS
Posts: 29,003
|
i'm a geographer but this thread sucks
|
|
07-24-2009, 10:14 PM | #148 |
Banned
Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship.
Posts: 39,439
|
geography is cool
|
|
07-25-2009, 01:01 AM | #149 |
Saturday Night Goth
Location: POLLOS
Posts: 9,207
|
If everyone on earth ate the person next to them, we'd still be overpopulated. This is not a fact, just my opinion.
|
|
07-25-2009, 06:22 PM | #150 |
Registered User
Location: In my house.
Posts: 14,464
|
|
|