Glass is not dead.

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by wHATcOLOR

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heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine

everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are

blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears

*shakes uncontrollably*

[RenewRevive]

Originally Posted by Mayfuck

This album is gonna be embarassingly bad.

If they concentrate on the music, as Mariner said and forget the bullshit then there is a better than evens chance it kicks ass. What've you heard, for definite to make you think otherwise? It's going to be rock, no machina-production nightmare and Billy's treating it deadly serious. We won't know for sure until it gets released, but there's no sense it giving up on it before then.

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by Mariner

i'm with you so far




this is where i'll disagree. whether or not it had any correlation with billy's overt attempt at 'concept', the quality of machina was far below the quality of the band's previous output. i've heard b-sides, demos, and live performances that illustrate what the band was capable of during the machina 'era', and i find little of that on the album. i know that's somewhat subjective personal opinion, but i think a lot of fans heard what i heard and would agree; something's definitely missing on machina. maybe it wouldn't have made a difference if billy wasn't putting some of his time and ability into the 'mystery', but i'd say there's a decent chance that if he'd let a concept come naturally instead of trying to forcedly construct one and fit the album into it (in my opinion it seems quite likely that's how things went), it may have ended up a work of art with much higher musical quality and thematic cohesiveness. in other words, if billy had issued a well-executed concept i may not have had a problem with it, but from where i stand the machina mystery is far from well-executed.



i don't know if i would make such a universal division, nor am i sure i agree with limiting an artist's purpose to those two things.



in my opinion that's understandable. trying to make your fans/artistic consumers think is fine, but you should do it well. billy did not.



of course there's a little part of me (and probably most fans) that wishes billy was putting out all this subpar music and making all these poor decisions on purpose, that the breakup and d'arcy leaving and the entire arc of the second half of the band's career (1997-2000) was a planned act parodying/conforming to the basic "behind the music" plot, and that at some point next year the band will make their debut and james and d'arcy will be there and the new album will completely blow people away ...

... but the chance of that actually being the case is about one-in-a-quadrillion. occam's razor, kids.

even so, musically machina stands far apart from sp's other albums, but is there really such a thing as a credible concept album, one that "works" that is as grand and visionary as machina? nobody else has tried to take it so far. cyber/goth-metal records with ludicrous alchemical and quasi-religious imagery might be a dime a dozen, but there are none on machina's scale, let alone any that also try to convey an intentionally cryptic story, a vaguely political commentary on the music business, AND want to be taken seriously. billy was taking on a hell of a lot with machina, i don't think he could have expected it to work first time around. but i think he did as good a job as anyone could have. it works on a very subliminal level that i don't think you're going to understand unless you think a bit like billy...you've got to be sensitive to the melodrama, the epic and the fantastical, and the just plain ridiculous. on the one hand, i think machina works just because of the futuristic goth aesthetic. perhaps you can't really explain it, but that style and image just speaks to people for some reason. its a theatrical yet punky reflection of human condition...it suggests beauty, tragedy, purpose...things people think they want, even if they're not really there. on the other hand, machina still stands on the strength of its good songs. strip away all the imagery, the machina mystery, the rest of the package and you're left with some very solid songs. everlasting gaze, stand inside your love, age of innocence...almost all of them are brilliant as anything that came before. people look too hard for something to complain about. machina and machina II are masterpieces in their own right, but most people just can't decide whether or not they like it because they've always got to take the music and the "arty bullshit" in the same breath. what can i say. machina is still ahead of its time.

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by wHATcOLOR

radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio, radio

heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine, heavy metal heavy metal machine

everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are, everywhere you are, is everywhere you are

blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears, blue skies bring tears

those lines are supposed to be that way. every one. the repetition mocks the cheapness of mainstream pop music. he didn't need to repeat a single line but he wanted to.

[wHATcOLOR]

that's like when some idiot writes a disorganized sloppy story because he wants the narrator to seem insane, and you tell him that it was a disorganized sloppy story and he says 'no man, that's how it's SUPPOSED to be man!!! cause the narrator is insane!!' but the fact remains that it is a disorganized sloppy story. there are ways to convey insanity far more subtly and effectively without turning what you're doing into a piece of crap.

even if he were 'mocking the cheapness of mainstream pop', which i don't think he is, it wouldn't make his songs any better

[Reyngel]

I have the perfect fucking solution to all of this:

-Release a double-disc set, with Disc 1 having vocals and Disc 2 just having the music. Then, if the lyrics are all about Glass and shit, you can just pop in the other disc and enjoy the music.

You all with me?

[Mariner]

in other words, let some capable person outside of billy's circle of yes-men get their hands on the raw tracks and do a better job creating a final album than machina.

[Reyngel]

Originally Posted by Mariner

in other words, let some capable person outside of billy's circle of yes-men get their hands on the raw tracks and do a better job creating a final album than machina.

Not quite. I'd honestly be happy with two separate mixes... one with vocals and one without. I could care less who's in charge of doing it.

[dudehitscar]

machina is a great album. BUT I wouldn't want another album with that storyline, a book would be fine.

[ratking17]

Corgan has made it known that he wanted machina to be a double album. That said, how does Machina II fit into the story of glass and such?

[Effloresce]

Like I said before, I really do think the Glass/Zero thing will continue, but in the form of a book, and then maybe movie (animated) later on.

As far as the album's sound goes, I don't think it is going to be a repeat of Machina. If you compare Machina, Machina 2, Zwan, and TheFutureEmbrace, they don't really sound alike. Billy doesn't like to repeat himself. And he does have a lot to draw from the Gish/SD/MCIS days that he never really did. For example, SP never really did an album that was just balls to the wall rocking from start to finish. Gish started out that way, then it got pretty mellow, then poppy. Siamese had some harder tracks, but overall it was more of a melodic dreamy rock opera. MCIS was all over the place.

[mistle]

Originally Posted by ratking17

Corgan has made it known that he wanted machina to be a double album.

no he has not. machina was never meant to be a double album

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by Mariner

in other words, let some capable person outside of billy's circle of yes-men get their hands on the raw tracks and do a better job creating a final album than machina.

The fact that the band is working with producers it hasn't worked with before gives me some hope that this is actually happening to some extent. I'd be a lot more worried about the album's sound if it were being worked on primarily by the usual suspects (Flood, Alan Moulder, Bjorn Thorsrud, etc.).

[ratking17]

Really mistle? I have an interview with Corgan saying he wanted machina to be a double album and that Virgin said no since Adore was not a commercial success...

[HarLequiN]

Originally Posted by Izzle

even so, musically machina stands far apart from sp's other albums, but is there really such a thing as a credible concept album, one that "works" that is as grand and visionary as machina? nobody else has tried to take it so far. cyber/goth-metal records with ludicrous alchemical and quasi-religious imagery might be a dime a dozen, but there are none on machina's scale, let alone any that also try to convey an intentionally cryptic story, a vaguely political commentary on the music business, AND want to be taken seriously. billy was taking on a hell of a lot with machina, i don't think he could have expected it to work first time around. but i think he did as good a job as anyone could have. it works on a very subliminal level that i don't think you're going to understand unless you think a bit like billy...you've got to be sensitive to the melodrama, the epic and the fantastical, and the just plain ridiculous. on the one hand, i think machina works just because of the futuristic goth aesthetic. perhaps you can't really explain it, but that style and image just speaks to people for some reason. its a theatrical yet punky reflection of human condition...it suggests beauty, tragedy, purpose...things people think they want, even if they're not really there. on the other hand, machina still stands on the strength of its good songs. strip away all the imagery, the machina mystery, the rest of the package and you're left with some very solid songs. everlasting gaze, stand inside your love, age of innocence...almost all of them are brilliant as anything that came before. people look too hard for something to complain about. machina and machina II are masterpieces in their own right, but most people just can't decide whether or not they like it because they've always got to take the music and the "arty bullshit" in the same breath. what can i say. machina is still ahead of its time.

I absolutely agree! Couldn't have said it better myself!

[Travis Meeks]

Originally Posted by Shawn Osmond

Did it ever occur to you that Billy never fully explained the Machina story or took his time with the contest because YOU took the whole Machina mystery thing alot more seriously than he or the band did? I mean, it seems like you're the one who's upset that there was never really an explanation given to the story, maybe because you spent too much time with it?

Obviously, its not the casual fans who were turned off by the whole Machina story. It was people like you, as well as most of the o-boarders, the ones who spent all of like 2000 getting caught up in all that crap. You guys were trying to make the Smashing Pumpkins into something more spiritual and more influential than what they actually were, which was simply a rock band who made a few albums and then went away.

Anyone who got angry about the essay contest obvioulsy didnt understand the reason why the Smashing Pumpkins existed in the first place, and it was good to get rid of them.

umm, I probably spent an hour tops thinking of a glass/june connection. Billy created the fucking contest you douche, not me.

I did not write anything and I did not have a o board account

you're a fucking idiot and your assumptions are all wrong

go suck off davin

[Travis Meeks]

Originally Posted by Shawn Osmond

Sometimes these side projects get completed, sometimes they don't. Who cares as long as the album eventually comes out? And I dont see anyone giving him credit for alot of the extra stuff that he did that was successful, like the Stigmata soundtrack or his work with the Make A Wish Foundation back when he was the largest donor ever for the organization. No, Travis Meeks and Friends are going to stay angry because Billy isn't telling them about the symbols in the Machina mystery. And that is just horrible!!

I don't give a fuck how much he donated and you are missing the point about machina you douche

[Travis Meeks]

Originally Posted by Mariner

it's quite possible to be disgusted by the whole machina mystery business without having been too invested in it. apparently it's a stretch to wrap your mind around it when your mouth is already wrapped firmly around - well, i'll leave that to your imagination, but consider this: some fans dislike the machina mystery because it got in the way of the quality of the album. a well-executed album 'concept' would have had enough subtlety and wit to allow fans who didn't want to bother to ignore it. the machina mystery had no great excess of either subtlety or wit. it was nearly impossible to listen to the music without all of the ill-concieved concept-related lyrical messages and musical themes popping out all over the place, turning an attempt to listen to machina without the 'mystery' into an exercise in well-placed willful ignorance and artfully-dodged embarassment. i'm sorry if you don't understand that some fans hold the band to a high enough standard that they cannot stomach the proposition of pretending the pile of horseshit isn't there to try to enjoy the few bits of true artistic quality on the record.

Well said, Ziggy and the Spiders from Mars is a much better album once you understand the concept

same goes for the wall. Once I really understood The Wall I was mesmerized by it's brilliance (and I still am) making it a great piece of art, not just a bunch of good songs.

[Travis Meeks]

Originally Posted by ratking17

Corgan has made it known that he wanted machina to be a double album. That said, how does Machina II fit into the story of glass and such?

Like a dumpster outside of the studio

[Travis Meeks]

Originally Posted by ratking17

Really mistle? I have an interview with Corgan saying he wanted machina to be a double album and that Virgin said no since Adore was not a commercial success...

Yeah I think you are correct. I remember this too.

[Travis Meeks]

Although my blood pressure is now at an alarming rate, this thread did allow me to create a new location.

[thrueyesofruby]

i still thinks it's amazing how we all argue about Machina almost seven years later. I think it can be taken at face value based on the music being over-produced and inconsistent. Or you can get deeply involved in the story and the album has a more value. Personally, i like machina a lot, it has a lot of depth for a band that could've settled for less. While not entirely original, the concept was more developed than a lot of the prog-rock emo-new wave concept crap coming out since Machina such the Mars Volta, Coheed and Cambria, My Chemical Romance, the Killers, etc.

atleast there weren't any Glass and the machines of God comic books. the cartoon was almost there.

[topleybird]

I was worried about the album, but now that I know it's going to bring the frothingly insane o-board psychos shuddering out of the woodwork, woo hoo

hey guys i'm june, every major record released in the past twenty years was inspired by me

biplane smiles and carpetbagging nostalgia, my harmonium wreaks shatterhavoc across the skies

Aawelfakwejf awwe glawga wGAWGAW EG daabdfbaena eoinma;d fboaim adn aeori;amegAGA

[redbull]

PUCKER UP AND KISS THE ASPHALT NOW

what if the new album was just relationship of command re-recorded

[Reyngel]

Originally Posted by thrueyesofruby

i still thinks it's amazing how we all argue about Machina almost seven years later.

We argue about it seven years later because it was their last album(Machina 2 doesn't count), and thus, the last piece of their work we have to go by. We also argue about it seven years later because some/most of us think it was a horrible album to be their last, and the disappointment that was generated from that has transcended from 2000 to 2006.

[Rarely]

you guys are idiots if you think machina had any type of real storyline

[Mablak]

Disney's Glass and the Ghost Children, with eddie murphy as comic relief in the form of a shapeshifting groupie, has anyone seen this yet?

[dudehitscar]

CUT AWAY CUT AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!

Talk about a band I miss. At the drive in was rock and roll heaven.

[mistle]

Originally Posted by Travis Meeks

Yeah I think you are correct. I remember this too.

are you sure he didn't just say they didn't want to put out machina2? in some interview (that i'm not going to try to find because it would take hours. someone else must have seen it too) he says the band agreed from the beginning they definitely didn't want to do another double album. but i wouldn't be surprised if he said both

[tcm]

maybe this from the break-up announcement interview?

Caller 4: I want to know if you're going to release a whole bunch of B-sides like the Airplane box set, 'cause those songs are amazing and I know, I think you said, like no one listens to them (Billy laughs). I listen to them. They are incredible.

Billy: Naw, I just said that to be a pain.

Caller 4: (laughing) Oh

Billy: But um, but um no we've actually probably got about another album's worth of songs left over from Machina which we're gonna try to finish starting in June, and then uh, we also might do some additional, sort of live, uh recording, um, so there's, there's other stuff that we're gonna, sort of, release, but when it comes out, whether it comes out now or 10 years from now, I really can't say.

...

Jed: So how would you package that? You have 3 or 4 songs left over. You haven't thought about, like, whether they're like, coming out in the Fall or 10 years from the Fall, and how do you make it look like they're not just left over from the uh, the last Machina album?

Billy: Well, actually, I mean, we recorded enough for another double CD.

Jed: Whoa!

Billy: And, and um, it just sort of, you know, just sort of got to finish a vocal here and there but um you know there was no way we were going to sort of put ourselves through the double CD thing again.

Jed: (laughing) Yeah, you got punished for that.

Billy: Not particularly, but it's hard, it's hard to convince people that, you know, 2 albums, 2 CDs, you know, were worth listening to. I mean people, uh, people, reviewers were complaining that Machina was too long, and that was 15 songs, so...um, I don't know what we're going to do with it, but we'll finish it, so, it'll just come out at some point, whether it comes out this year or whenever, it doesn't really matter.

http://www.spfc.org/news-press/artic...ontent_id=1158