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Old 12-14-2012, 09:19 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by vixnix View Post
It's not mentioning Christianity that upsets me. It's talking about what is required or what it means to be a Christian.
that's ridiculous.

if you cannot verbalize the tenants of your faith... if it is upsetting just talking about it... then you probably don't really deeply care that much about it. You're probably attached to to religion on an emotional level (obviously) and the reason you don't want to question any of it is that it'll lead to some logic that can't be reconciled with your emotional attachment.

We all have a propensity toward religion. It's hardwired into us. It doesn't make god real. It only shows that it was useful for survival of family/tribal groups over the past million years or so.

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:51 AM   #212
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Science tells us there are no fewer than 9 gods, but it becomes greater than 6 standard deviations from the mean into unlikelihood once you get past 40 gods.

If I were a gambling man, I'd go with 11. There are probably 11 gods.

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:35 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Eric Blair View Post

honestly couldn't care less if a christian wants to throw like another 70 gods and reincarnation in there.
you religious types just cherry pick what you want to hear it's so fuckin silly

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:40 AM   #214
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i'm christian
oh dear.

this disappoints me.

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:05 PM   #215
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Is Red Sea Pedestrian considered offensive or hilarious btw?

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:18 PM   #216
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I can't think of a single good thing that religion has done over the past 100 years that couldn't also have been done with out religion.

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:15 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by cocksure View Post
that's not what those divisions are based on though. anglicans, presbyterians and methodists are different in ways that most people don't know or even care about today. which seems weird to me, if you really take your religion seriously.
Yes, I agree...that was part of the reasoning behind the formation of the Uniting Church, and ecumenism remains a big focus. Even within Catholicism there are differences to how worship is carried out, well from the services I've been to I would day there were, anyway. I think having such a big hierarchy and having a catechism makes everything a lot more unified which is terrific if you like the way things are run, because you get to be part of this huge world wide community. But if you don't like the way things are run, if you have questions that nobody wants to answer, or opinions that nobody wants to listen to...it isn't so great. It's good that there are alternatives for those of us who get a lot out of them.

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:37 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by scottytheoneand View Post
that's ridiculous.

if you cannot verbalize the tenants of your faith... if it is upsetting just talking about it... then you probably don't really deeply care that much about it. You're probably attached to to religion on an emotional level (obviously) and the reason you don't want to question any of it is that it'll lead to some logic that can't be reconciled with your emotional attachment.

We all have a propensity toward religion. It's hardwired into us. It doesn't make god real. It only shows that it was useful for survival of family/tribal groups over the past million years or so.
Yeah I agree about being hardwired. I don't think that truth excludes the possibility that God created us that way. But I do think about it a lot. I didn't grow up religious, my parents never once took me to church and my father was a mining engineer who was into astronomy so my first spiritual experiences were on hill tops and looking at the stars at night. I didn't need God for anything, my life was exciting and majestic enough without God.

I don't know how anyone is able to talk about what they believe, with any kind of certainty. I think to do that you must have blocked the possibility from your mind that you've got it wrong. That possibility looms over me permanently; it's one if the cruelties of recovering from an acute psychosis. I have to question everything I think even when it is deeply uncomfortable to do that, because at one time if I hadn't, I wouldn't have regained my mind. I would have stayed lost in a delusion. That's a really uncomfortable truth for me. The psychosis was about the reality if God, so I am especially wary of the concept of God. So having said all that, it isn't that logic conflicts with my emotional attachments - I've had to deal with that my whole life as a woman of colour. It's uncomfortable because my mind is recalculating the most probable answer to what is my life for? Every day, every minute really, and my beliefs about my life and about my existence change constantly throughout the day. I'll think something different about the universe tonight than I do this morning. It seems so hopeless to try to explain what I think the truth is or what my beliefs are. So it upsets me when people either assume that my beliefs are fixed as a Christian, or else that if they're not fixed, I'm not a Christian.

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:40 PM   #219
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today i asked my mom what religion considers herself (because we're jewish, but she wears a cross now for some convoluted reason) and she said jewish and then some shit about god doesnt come when you want him but when you need him blah blah and i really wanted to say something terrible to her about why didnt god come for the kids in conneticut but i just said "i'm not questioning you i was just wondering" and the whole thing made me sad

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:05 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Trotskilicious View Post
you religious types just cherry pick what you want to hear it's so fuckin silly
i find this accusation kind of ridiculous. it assumes to be christian or jewish or muslim or whatever that you absolutely have to accept *everything* or else you're hypocritical. that has never been the case though, *ever*. all religions and religious people change the sort of things they believe in and this usually follows serious reflection. plus, i did say there are things you have to believe.

also its probably more silly for atheists to explain to religious people why they aren't properly religious.

Last edited by Eric Blair : 12-14-2012 at 07:13 PM.

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:06 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
oh dear.

this disappoints me.
i thought by now you would have reconciled yourself to the fact that not everybody is going to be an enlightened beacon of rationality like you?

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:31 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Eric Blair View Post
i find this accusation kind of ridiculous. it assumes to be christian or jewish or muslim or whatever that you absolutely have to accept *everything* or else you're hypocritical. that has never been the case though, *ever*. all religions and religious people change the sort of things they believe in and this usually follows serious reflection. plus, i did say there are things you have to believe.

also its probably more silly for atheists to explain to religious people why they aren't properly religious.
actually the overarching point is that all of this is stupid

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:32 PM   #223
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you're like a scientist or whatever and you think invisible omnipotent sky people are the overlords and creators of the universe?

LOLOLOLOL

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:34 PM   #224
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i just can't understand how you guys possibly even believe this shit out of anything more than habit and possibly fear

sure i can see a dumb person totally thinking it's possible that an invisible omniscient, omnipotent skyperson is in control of all destiny but normally rational, thinking people? You think there's some kind of afterlife where you are judged on your deeds in this world? COME ON IT'S ABSOLUTELY ABSURD

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:55 PM   #225
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I think it's possible that there is an author to what exists. And that before that author, what we are worth is measured by criteria very different to that which we have invented to judge each other by. And I believe that Jesus' teachings are the closest thing we have to God's standard and that it's through living according to those teachings that we come close to God. I don't think anything about the afterlife and being judged for my deeds. I think that's very Hellenic/Roman thinking and just one expression of Christianity.

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:58 PM   #226
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what we are worth is measured by criteria very different to that which we have invented to judge each other by
this is hysterical to me thanks vix

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:59 PM   #227
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point 2: lots of people have been "jesus-like" he's hardly unique, Buddha for example beat him to it by about 2000 years or more

unless you believe he walks on water and has the essence of the invisible sky man etc

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:14 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Eulogy View Post
oh dear.

this disappoints me.
Same

He used to be one of my favorites

 
Old 12-14-2012, 11:25 PM   #229
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eh? whatever guys. i mean, i have a set of metaphysical beliefs which roughly match up with a religious tradition. i guess i'm not properly christian because i suspect that a lot of the other religions could also be true and possibly more true than christianity. but this stuff is really only a problem for strict english language bible literalists who are mostly confined to the US. there are plenty of abrahamic and brahamanic theologians and philosophers who say metaphysical skepticism is okay. as far as i'm concerned you don't even have to believe in an individual soul that survives death. i have no belief when it comes to that either way, so don't accuse me of believing that.

what it really comes down to is that i just don't think the notion of a first cause is as crazy as everyone makes out and that a lot of christian ritual is harmless.

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:32 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Trotskilicious View Post
point 2: lots of people have been "jesus-like" he's hardly unique, Buddha for example beat him to it by about 2000 years or more

unless you believe he walks on water and has the essence of the invisible sky man etc
I don't really have an opinion on miracles. But Buddha had pretty different teachings to Jesus. I think they share the same core of compassion, as do most major religions.

If I was born in a different culture I'd have a different religion, I think that's ok. It's ok too that I was born into this culture and I have my religion.

 
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:50 PM   #231
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you also don't have to believe in miracles - which i don't - and you also don't have to believe that jesus was unique, or that other religions are definitely wrong. you also don't have to believe that the bible is the direct word of god - which i don't - or that heaven and hell exists, or that evolution is false, or any ridiculous shit like that.

people who think you do have to believe all that stuff don't seem to understand that christianity can exists outside of the US.

 
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:01 AM   #232
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yeah that must be what it is. it must be that i'm american

i mean ignoring the fact that america probably has more religions and denominations than any of your countries

and besides the whole premise is absolutely absurd. especailly if you want to call yourself a christian without actually following any rules. what in the hell is the point of religion so you can feel better about death? or that you can feel like there is some sense or higher compassion in the world even though pretty much all observable data says there isn't?

 
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:03 AM   #233
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we're not talking about biblical literalism here

as a christian you believe
1. there is a god, and there is only one
2. he had a son born mortal
3. that son was the savior of mankind
4. that son was killed and then resurrected

and if you don't think this then how do you even consider yourself "christian" is this kind of secular detachment that lets you believe in the invisible sky man and his savior of a son so you can sleep at night or what i don't get it

 
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:05 AM   #234
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i mean if its entirely up to your own personal belief system then you're already 90% of the way to rejecting this nonsense out of hat

 
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:15 AM   #235
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all i meant was that people who think you have to hate gay people if you're christian and are cherry picking if you don't pretty clearly only think that because that is such a large part of religious discourse in the US. i've never heard this criticism from anyone other than americans. and there is a really good reason for that. basically, you can only get away with thinking god hates homosexuals if you are an english bible literalist. taking the english translation literally is a uniquely american theology. you pretty much never get it anywhere else. that is why i said that. but i mean, i'm not even trying to use that as a criticism - i think it is completely understandable to get shitty over that sort of thing.

as for the point of religion, i'm not sure how to answer that. i find a number of arguments an analytic philosophy of religion convincing, even though they aren't conclusive. i'm also wary of writing off all religious experience as delusions, or saying the fact that neuroscience can study religious experience means it is necessarily impossible to count that as some sort of evidence.

as for rules, other than accepting the core moral teachings of jesus as being valuable there aren't any more which you absolutely have to follow to be a christian.

Quote:
pretty much all observable data says there isn't
actually, observable data has almost nothing decisive to say on this issue.

anyway man, i like you, eulogy and graveflower and my beliefs aren't intended to be a personal attack, which is why i'm painfully trying to explain myself. i've spent a lot of time thinking about this and i'm satisfied that i'm not just trying to make myself feel better about death, especially considering i'm not convinced there is an afterlife. my interest is mainly academic, and i just happen to think there is some value to religion.

Quote:
as a christian you believe
1. there is a god, and there is only one
2. he had a son born mortal
3. that son was the savior of mankind
4. that son was killed and then resurrected
you don't have to believe literally that he was god's son, or that he was literally resurrected. a lot of people do, but it absolutely isn't mandatory.

 
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:20 AM   #236
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by the way, there are better atheist arguments than "you just want to sleep better at night"

 
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:32 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Trotskilicious View Post

as a christian you believe
1. there is a god, and there is only one
2. he had a son born mortal
3. that son was the savior of mankind
4. that son was killed and then resurrected
Where do you get this from

 
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:53 AM   #238
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you don't have to believe literally that he was god's son, or that he was literally resurrected. a lot of people do, but it absolutely isn't mandatory.
well if you don't you don't believe he's "Christ" then you aren't a christian

but obviously i'm dealing with layers upon layers upon layers of denial and self-justification here so what's the point

there is no god

the lack of proof of the existence of an omnipotent being is not "undecided" it's an absolutely stupid concept that absolutely has no shred of anything beyond scripture and personal faith to back it up

it's like if you said there's a table in this room and i look around and i see no table and i say, there is no table you fucking idiot. and you just respond "oh but i think it's there, you can't prove it's not and STOP BEING MEAN TO ME"

 
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:54 AM   #239
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Where do you get this from
lol

you two are idiots. personal attack, whatever. you're idiots.

 
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:01 AM   #240
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other than accepting the core moral teachings of jesus as being valuable
which comes from four separate "canon" third party sources that relentlessly contradict each other

so seriously what the hell do you know about the teachings of jeebus, it's all based on your personal interpretation and biases

 
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