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Old 06-18-2005, 04:09 PM   #31
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Old 06-18-2005, 04:14 PM   #32
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Old 06-18-2005, 04:20 PM   #33
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Burger House
Balls
Keller's
East Texas Burger Co.
Petty's

and a couple other... But these aren't chains, they're just little local places (Burger House does have at least 3 locations though, and Petty's has 2, but they're way out in bumblefuck nowhere)

 
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Old 06-18-2005, 04:23 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by murgle
Burger House
Balls
Keller's
East Texas Burger Co.
Petty's

and a couple other... But these aren't chains, they're just little local places (Burger House does have at least 3 locations though, and Petty's has 2, but they're way out in bumblefuck nowhere)
Add Jake's to that list.

And Burger House is a chain. There's at least 5 of them. That's a chain.

Those places all own Whataburger though. I think Keller's is just okay. But Kincaid's and Fred's in Fort Worth own all of the Dallas joints you listed. Not even close. Kincaid's was named the best burger in America 10 years in a row back in the late 80s to mid 90s.

Also, go to Jam's in Athens; it's the Home of the Hamburger. Uncle Fletch invented it in Athens and his descendents still run the place.

 
Old 06-18-2005, 04:24 PM   #35
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Old 06-18-2005, 04:28 PM   #36
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The Better Burger Battle
American cuisine is identified around the world with this sandwich. We have taken the idea of placing broiled, fried or even steamed ground beef between bread or buns with a bewildering array of condiments to the point where the hamburger may be the icon of American food. In the Northeast, except for the steamed cheeseburger (see below), there are no clear regions of how the hamburger is treated but two of the claimants to the throne of the birthplace of this sandwich are in the region so it needs to be *******d.

ORIGINS AND DIFFUSION
Ground Beef and the Word "Hamburger"
The origin of ground beef is accepted to have been with Mongolian and Turkic tribes known as Tartars who shredded low-quality beef from Asian cattle to make it more edible and digestible. Russian Tartars, possibly through other peoples in the Baltics, introduced it to Germany before the 14th century. The Germans flavored it with regional spices and either cooked it or ate it raw. It became a standard meal for poorer classes and in Hamburg aquired the name "Hamburg steak"(Panati 1987).

Panati (1987) claims that the steak came to the United States with German immigrants in the late 19th century but another source (Mariani 1994) claims that "Hamburg Steak" appeared on a menu at Delmonico's (New York City) as early as 1834. By 1899 the dish was on menus as far away as Walla Walla, WA. ( http://204.32.48.195/htm/chron/wldarcmtsf.stm#hmbr ) and in 1902 it is described in one of the most widely used cookbooks of the time, Mrs. Rorer's New Cook Book (Mariani 1994). It is clear that the word "hamburger" predates the idea of putting the grilled beef between bread and came to this country with German immigrants.

The Patty Between Bread
Civic pride is not something to toy with and there is a lot of that associated with being the birthplace of the hamburger. If it were only one place there would be no problem, but I have uncovered four places in the United States (two of them in the Northeast) that claim to be where the hamburger, as a sandwich, was invented. All the stories have elements that are central to our culture - thrift, ingenuity, hucksterism and convenience. All the legends have strong local supporters and in three of the places there are festivals commemorating the birth, although none of the festivals is very old. To avoid playing favorites, I am going to recite the stories alphabetically rather than chronologically.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Athens, TX

Although claiming the hambuger invention, Athens is better known in the food world as the Blackeyed Pea Capital of the World and this festival dwarfs the hamburger event, as does an Old Time Fiddlers festival also held there. So while Athens make the claim, it is not central to its existence. (See http://www.gigaplex.com/food/capitals.htm)

The late Texas historian, Frank X. Tolbert, has done research claiming that Fletcher Davis, aka "Old Dave," invented the hamburger sandwich [photo below]. As the local pottery business slowed down, Davis opened a lunch counter in the late 1880s and some oral history supports the claim that he was selling an unnamed sandwich of ground beef between two slices of bread at that time from the lunch counter.


Fletcher Davis
In 1904 Davis and his wife went to the St. Louis World's Fair either on his own or the townspeople took up a collection to send him (there is no evidence for that claim, however). Whoever paid for the trip, he was there since a reporter for the New York Tribune wrote from the fair of a new sandwich called a hamburger, "the innovation of a food vendor on the pike." The reporter did not name the vendor but Athens resident Clint Murchison said that his grandfather had strong memories of the sandwich in the 1880s but remembered the innovator only as "Old Dave." Murchison also had a large photograph of the midway at the 1904 fair with "Old Dave's Hamburger Stand" marked apparently by his grandfather. When Davis returned from the fair there were already several cafes in Athens serving the sandwich and he went back to firing pots in the Miller pottery works. Tolbert's investigation proved that "Old Dave" was Fletcher Davis from Athens (Tolbert 1983).

All the claims of primacy have to deal with the question of how the name was applied to the sandwich as well as the sandwich itself. The story from Athens is that in town the sandwich had no name but that it was given the name "hamburger" at the fair. The Germans of St. Louis were principally from southern Germany and enjoyed putting down northern Germans who, according to them, were large eaters of ground meat, particularly raw. "So the St. Louis Germans may have named the sandwich hamburger as a derisive gesture toward the barbaric, ground-meat gobblers in the city of Hamburg." (Kindree Miller, nephew of Fletch Davis, reported in Tolbert's Texas).

The promotional material for the 1991 hamburger festival in Athens stated that the McDonald's Institute had proclaimed that town the birthplace of the hamburger. While the McDonalds Corporation does recognize the St. Louis World's Fair, 1904, as the place where the first hamburger was served, the archives division was unable to find any reference to the study cited by the Athens newspaper (Wizniuk 1998). The person in charge of the hamburger festival in Seymour, WI,, remembers the "study" as an opportunity for school children to vote for the place of origin and recalls that the Athens, TX, area seemed to be better organized to get out the vote.




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Hamburg, NY
The claim of Hamburg, NY, also relies heavily on oral history written down long after the event. Two brothers, Charles and Frank Menches from Stark County, OH, were travelling a circuit of fairs, race meetings, and farmers' picnics in the early 1880s. They sold sandwiches using a gasoline stove to fry the meat. The popular sandwiches at these events were pork sausage, fried egg, fried liverwurst, fried mush and fried peas porridge. The brothers decided to focus on the pork sausage sandwich. In 1885 while selling at the Erie County, NY, fair, also known as the Hamburg Fair for the county seat, they ran out of pork sausage.

At this point the story gets a little confusing because two sources make different claims. Kunzog, who talked with Frank Menches about this in the 1920s, says that when they ran out of sausage they approached a Hamburg butcher, Andrew Klein, who operated a slaughter house and meat market. He was unable to furnish pork to them and, since the weather was very hot, he did not want to do any butchering for a small order. So he offered to chop up ten pounds of beef.

After forming patties and frying them they decided that a little brown sugar would bring out the flavor. The legend contends that the name was given for the town of Hamburg, NY, and had nothing to do with the penchant for the people of Hamburg to eat ground or finely chopped meat, as claimed in the Athens, TX, story.

A local historian, Joseph Streamer, writing an "Out of the Past" column in a local newspaper, The Sun, claimed that the brothers had gotten the meat from Stein's market, not Kleins, but in another column he noted that Stein had sold the market in 1874; at that time Franch Menches would have been only eleven years old. With the similarity of "Stein" and "Klein" it is easy to see how one could get confused but it sheds some doubt on the claim. Streamer wrote approximately 200 of the small pieces in the paper and in the one dealing with Stein's market no mention was made of the hamburger invention. Nor do any of the centennial, sesquicentennial or 175th anniversary volumes of Hamburg's history. The lack of mention of the invention of the hamburger in the "official" histories of some of these communities is consistent; all the evidence seems to come from interviews long after the event.

New Haven, CT
Several sources, mostly Connecticut based, make a claim that the sandwich was invented in 1895 in New Haven, CT. Local newspaper accounts say that Louis Lassen, on emigrating from Denmark in 1880, sold butter and egs and then leased a lunch wagon in 1895. He first specialized in a steak sandwich with thin slices of meat. He would take the trimmings home and grind them up to serve as patties or meat loaf to his family. Although some of the sources claim 1895 as the date for the sandwich, the Lassen family usually says 1900. Once when confronted with the Athens, TX, claim for Uncle Fletch Davis, Kenneth Lassen, Louis' grandson, was quoted as saying, "We have signed, dated and notarized affadavits saying we served the first hamburger sandwiches in 1900. Other people may have been serving the steak but there's a big difference between a hamburger steak and a hamburger sandwich." (Lassen quoted in Review Staff 1991). The sandwich was sold between pieces of bread and soon became the bulk of Lassen's lunch business.

Louis' Lunch is still selling their hamburgers from a small brick building in New Haven. The sandwich is grilled vertically in antique gas grills and served between pieces of toast rather than a bun.


Photo Courtesy of George Motz (1.27.03)

Seymour, WI
The Seymour story has Charlie Nagreen serving the world's first hamburger at the Seymour Fair of 1885, some five months before the Hamburg claim. "Hamburger" Charlie supposedly decided to flatten a meatball and place it between slices of bread. Speaking to the Appleton (WI) Post Crescent in 1947, Nagreen claims to have originated the use of the word also. The program printed for the "Home of the Hamburger Celebration" in 1989 contained a reprinted account of the first Seymour Fair in 1885 and there was no mention Nagreen's invention (Anon. 1989).

It is clear from the Seymour story, however, that Charlie Nagreen did continue to make hamburgers and was rather well known on the local fair circuit until he was eighty years old. He was a busy entrepeneur; his daughter said he also peddled Christmas trees, party costumes, popcorn, fireworks and ice cream and also played in Nagreen's Orchestra. The descriptions of Nagreen written by people who knew him all spoke of his flair for promotion. "Hamburger Charlie" passed away in 1951 still claiming to be the first inventor of the hamburger.

Seymour has the most elaborate celebration and infrastructure of hamburger history in the Hamburger Hall of Fame (they plan to build a hamburger-shaped building) and an annual one day Burger Fest. In 1989 the world's largest hamburger (5,520 pounds) was served at the festival. There have been no challenges to the record so the annual big burger now is only around 1,000 pounds. This festival also has several competiive events around hamburgers - the hamburger relay and the ketchup slide.

Summit County, NY, OH?- False
I have encountered two passing mentions to Summit County (one in Ohio, which exists) and one in New York (which does not) in 1892. Copps food stores reports (http://204.32.48.195/htm/chron/wldarcmtsf.stm#hmb2) a date of the Summit County Fair (Ohio) in 1892. A newspaper insert from Athens, TX, in 1991 (Sept. 25), the year that the MacDonald's corporation annointed Athens over Seymour, as the "correct" location, mentioned Summit County, NY, also in 1892. I suspect that this comes from the MacDonald's report which I am still trying to obtain.

The Menches brothers were from Stark County, OH, which is directly south of Summit County so this may be the source of the confusion. It is possible that the Menches brothers were selling the sandwich at the Stark County Fair in 1892, but if their claim is to be believed, they had been selling the sandwiches for 7 years by then. And, if you ever read anything about the hamburger originating at the Summit County Fair in New York, please ask the person to find Summit County, NY.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some Similarities Among the Legends
Legitimization by Plaque- Louis' Lunch still exists in New Haven and during a threat to destroy the building for a medical center in the mid-1960s, the New Haven Preservation Trust paced a plaque proclaiming Louis' Lunch to be the first place the hamburger was sold. A Yale historian named Rollin Osterweis was present at the ceremony but his length 1953 history of New Haven contains no mention of Louis' Lunch or hamburger. In Athens a plaque was placed on the Ginger Murchison Building, approximately on Fletch Davis' cafe site, in the fall of 1984. I do not know if there is a plaque in Seymour, WI, but the hamburger hall of fame is there.

If We Claim it They Will Come - Three of these four places hold festivals around the event. The festival in Hamburg, NY, began in 1985 (the alleged 100th anniversary) and has been held since but is down to one day from three and the descendants of the Menches brothers, who still operate a restaurant in Union, OH, will not be at the 1997 festival for the first time. Athens, TX, holds a one-day "Uncle Fletch Davis Home of the Hamburger Cookoff and Trade Fair" in September. Seymour, WI, also holds a festival.

Shaky Documentation - all the claims are based on the recollections of usually one or possibly two people. For example, we have only the claim of the Lassen family that he served the hamburger but the family says it has signed affadavits. After the publication of a New York Times article, Frank Tolbert of Texas said he received a letter from a Neil E. Shay, formerly of New Haven and then (1974) in Dallas who stated very strongly that "Up until I left the City of the Elms and New Ideas, New Haven, circa 1933, Louis Lassen was still serving this steak sandwich - never a hamburger. It was probably beef off the rump, cut in thin slices". Kenneth Lassen's retort was that he once talked to with "Old Dave" of Athens and, "I don't think he had a full loaf in the oven"(quoted in Tolbert 1983, 135). All these stories fall into the category of regional legend. The Athens Review was notably honest about this saying that which one you believe probably depends on where you are from.

Bread or Toast, Not a Bun - None of the discussions contain any information about when the sandwich was first put on a bun or roll and all of them note that it was first served between bread or (in New Haven) toast. This is is marked contrast to the stories about the hot dog where the development of the bun was more critical to the sandwich. Mariani (1994) does say that by 1912 ground beef patties were being called "hamburgers" and served in a yeast bun the shape of the patty but provides no source for that information.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tentative Conclusions on the Origins of the Sandwich
Civic pride notwithstanding, here is my assessment of the claims. I have tried to take into account the amount and quality of the documentation that people could (or would) provide me on this issue. Nothing I say here will change the minds of people in the various communities but here it is:

Louis, Lunch, New Haven, CT, 1900- The weakest claim. All the evidence is supplied by the family and there is the one letter from Shay to Tolbert claiming that as late as 1933 Louis Lunch was not serving hamburgers but steak sandwiches. The drive to claim primacy began when the restaurant was threatened with urban renewal and may have been a publicity action to save the family's livlihood. The local myth that has developed around Louis' Lunch in New Haven will be difficult to dispel, however. They still use the original gas broilers - vertical, not horizontal -, serve the sandwich between piecees of toast, not a bun, and refuse to provide mustard or ketchup. It may well be an independent invention but the documentation is weak.

Charlie Nagreen, Seymour, WI, 1885- The Hamburger Hall of Fame is probably even more vigorous about promoting Seymour as the true birthplace than any of the others. I have not actually seen any of their documentation, however.

Menches Brothers, Hamburg, NY, 1885- Probably a true story and the clarity of the date is compelling. Frank Menches related the story to John Kunzog in the 1920s when he would have been in his late 70's and was quite clear about being 20 years old the year they went to the Hamburg Fair. There is some doubt thrown in when the local historian confused the meat markets and the story of the name of the sandwich does not match at all with the known history of "hamburg steak." Relying on Hamburg, NY, as the source of the name is not needed and makes the claim a little weaker. The town had several names during the 19th century and the final one was likely picked by a rail company executive looking at a map of Europe; people from Hamburg did not make up an important migration stream to the town.

"Old Dave," aka Fletcher Davis,Athens, TX, late 1880s- Probably a true story also. This is the only one of the stories that has been investigated by a known and trained historian. Although he had a clear bias for his home state, Frank Tolbert did talk with people whose grandparents knew Fletcher Davis well and who were related to Davis. I have not yet obtained a copy of the work done by MacDonald's Hamburger University in 1990 or 1991 but they supported Athens' claim over Seymour. I do not know yet if they dealt with Hamburg, NY or New Haven. It is interesting to note, though, that while the date of the 1904 St. Louis is clear and this is when the "world" became aware of the hamburger, no one can pin down Davis' cafe any closer than "the late 1880s." Taking a traditional defnition of "late" in a decade, this would imply that the Seymour and Hamburg claims pre-date Athens, although there is no easy way for Davis to have known about the other inventions.

This is most likely a case for independent invention of an American sandwich icon and we may never know which one was truly "the first."

DIFFUSION

Not much is known about the spread of the sandwich. In the Athens. TX, story there is the interesting side note that when Fetcher Davis returned from the fair he found several restaurants serving the sandwich and was unable to get back into the business he had been in for, presumably, close to 20 years before 1904. It seems rather strange that the other restaurants waited until the World's Fair to compete against Davis. The first chain (White Castle) does not appear unti 1921, Dick and Mac McDonald open their restaurant in 1940 but Ray Kroc's first franchise [picture] does not open until 1955. None of the stories contain information about the entrepeneurs trying to spread the sandwich. The Menches Brothers continued to travel the fair circuit for quite a while and it is possible that they served as diffusion agents in the Midwest and Northeast. How the idea of hamburgers got further west is not clear, although Hamburg Steak was on a menu in Walla Walla by 1889 (Dictionary of American Regional English). Even less is known about how it got to the South.

REGIONS

The hamburger is truly a national sandwich and has its national expression through the two large national franchise chains of MacDonald's and Burger King with thousands of outlets that cover the nation and are expanding internationally. The hamburger also has regional expression through franchises that have small to mid-sized numbers of outlets in certain areas of the country. I have not been able to find examples of regional franchises in the Northeast but here are some examples from other regions of the country. For example:

Most residents of the Northeast will never see a Svensons (Akron/Canton OH no internet presence Jan. 1997). This is a very large hamburger usually served with melted cheddar cheese.
Rally's a double drive-through (with service windows on 2 sides and no indoor seating) burger chain with over 500 restaurants. The majority are located in Ohio, Michigan, California, Texas, and Indiana.

Carl's Jr is a western chain with almost 700 outlets.

Hardee's, recently purchased by the parent company of Carl's Jr. is a formerly regional chain (the South), but with over 3,000 outlets in 40 states.

Krystal Burgers - an old franchise (1932) serving a sandwich very similar to the White Castle. There are about 250 in the South.

 
Old 06-18-2005, 06:28 PM   #37
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Licks is a pretty good greater toronto area chain- their veggie burgers are actually really really good compared to a lot of others i've had. They hand make their patties- the burgers are almost too thick to fit in your mouth.

The only annoying thing about them is their chatter- you order a burger a milk and fries and the cashier shouts to the cooks: "Order'in upa biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig juicy with the works and a small MOO!" And then everyone in the kitchen starts singing some licks song , i kid you not:erm

Harvey's is a canadian chain of burgers- but not very good. They're like a bridge between a place like Licks and McDonalds- but they arent as tasty as licks and definitely slower than Mcdonalds. Their poutine isnt bad though.

 
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Old 06-18-2005, 06:31 PM   #38
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In Mattoon, Illinois, the town over from where I go to college, is where the original Burger King, totally unaffiliated from the franchise Burger King, is located...complete with their very own "Hooter Burger."

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 10:26 AM   #39
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as far as chains go... I would say Sonic is my favorite

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 10:28 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by ammy
in n out has the WORST fries ever
tastless and greasy and soggy

they are horrible
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Old 06-19-2005, 10:31 AM   #41
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http://www.hollyeats.com/images/Sout...urgerFries.jpg
http://www.royrogersrestaurants.com/...e_sidebg_1.gif
http://www.danasresort.com/images/sp...hiteCastle.jpg
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Old 06-19-2005, 11:14 AM   #42
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our local burger king closed a month ago, because it had no chance against all the mcdonald's restaurants.

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 12:15 PM   #43
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Oh oh. I forgot about this place in Austin. Little drive-thru/walk-up place, or you can sit on tables outside (no inside). Sandy's or something like that. I think it's on South First and... something.. shit I'm useless.


Anyway, I just remembered that from when I visted last summer. good stuff.

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 12:26 PM   #44
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Smokehouse, in Berkeley CA, is incredible. Meghan, check it out. It's on Telegraph I think, going away from the campus.

Five Guys, a local chain (I'm pretty sure it's local) is perhaps the best hamburgers ever. Their burgers feature like... 3 patties in one sandwich. They're amazing. Their fries are delicious, too. I haven't been to one in a long time but I need to go soon. They're starting to sprout up in various places which is great.

There's this random local place in downtown Rehoboth, near the boardwalk, that has good burgers and incredible fries. I forget the name of it.

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 12:27 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
http://www.hollyeats.com/images/South/BackYard-BurgerFries.jpg[/IMG]
http://www.royrogersrestaurants.com/...e_sidebg_1.gif[/IMG]
http://www.danasresort.com/images/sp...hiteCastle.jpg[/IMG]
I'm pretty sure White Castle doesn't count as an indigenous burger joint

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 01:57 PM   #46
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WA has

Zips Fish n Chips (burgers whatevah)
Ruffs Giant Burgers
Miner's Drive In
Dicks


 
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Old 06-19-2005, 02:20 PM   #47
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looks like a lot of people like dicks.

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 02:21 PM   #48
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white castle is the devil.

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 02:23 PM   #49
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Newfoundlands version of the "local burger joint" are Fish n' Chips places. There all over the place.
Ches's
Scampers
The Big R
Leo's (pretty sure this is the oldest or Ches's)


There's pretty much NO one who can relate to this, which makes my posting in any thread like this difficult

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 02:39 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Varien
Newfoundlands version of the "local burger joint" are Fish n' Chips places. There all over the place.
Ches's
Scampers
The Big R
Leo's (pretty sure this is the oldest or Ches's)


There's pretty much NO one who can relate to this, which makes my posting in any thread like this difficult
when i was in newfoundland visiting family a whole lot of years ago, we ate a tonne of fish and chips, lobster, that sort of thing. I just remember that this one order of battered fish i had at a chip shack had grease dripping off the batter and dripping from my mouth:erm But DAMN it was still good!

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 02:56 PM   #51
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i was about to say krystal burger but that's just about everywhere in the south.

it's not exactly a burger joint, but we have Miami Subs. When I ate meat I would have the gyro platter every time. Also, they have the best fries. all you faggots that say your fries are the best. you're wrong.

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 03:43 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by pee pee colada
i was about to say krystal burger but that's just about everywhere in the south.

it's not exactly a burger joint, but we have Miami Subs. When I ate meat I would have the gyro platter every time. Also, they have the best fries. all you faggots that say your fries are the best. you're wrong.
i concur.

those fries own for realz

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 04:08 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by alisonmonster
The only annoying thing about them is their chatter- you order a burger a milk and fries and the cashier shouts to the cooks: "Order'in upa biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig juicy with the works and a small MOO!" And then everyone in the kitchen starts singing some licks song , i kid you not:erm
this is fucking awful. i can't even go there because i cringe when they all start singing and get flustered taking my money out and holding onto my purse and i have to fight the urge to run out before my food is done. it's not a good place for socially retarded people.

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 04:19 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by ammy
in n out has the BEST fries ever
no, Eat n Park does
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Old 06-19-2005, 04:31 PM   #55
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man. this thread makes me hungry for some burgers and fries. i haven't had any in like 4 months. :/

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 04:45 PM   #56
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mothafuckin maimi subs

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 04:47 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by mirrar
this is fucking awful. i can't even go there because i cringe when they all start singing and get flustered taking my money out and holding onto my purse and i have to fight the urge to run out before my food is done. it's not a good place for socially retarded people.
i had a licks guy hit on me

that place is fucking expensive!

 
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Old 06-19-2005, 10:08 PM   #58
Lucy Sky Diamonds
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Location: No Canada like French Canada, it's the best Canada in ze land.
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There's La Belle Province, LaFleur's and Piknik. I remember Belle Province being mighty good, but it's been a long time.

 
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Old 06-20-2005, 12:11 AM   #59
avian chaos
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Mean Gene's Burger

and

Dam Burger (we have a huge dam in our city, so it's apt)

 
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Old 06-20-2005, 11:52 AM   #60
beef curtains
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there was a Queer Eye where they went to some organic/ healthy independent burger joint in NYC... anyone know the place i'm talking of ?

 
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