GUNS, and your feelings on them

[jczeroman]

Originally Posted by antipop

Erm, no. If I had refused any service I would have to face consequences, but here in Austria we have a choice - 6 months of military service or 8 months of alternative civilian service. For historical reasons the only officially accepted motives for choosing the latter are "ethical concerns", hence no guns for antipop.

good "choice" there.

I still think it is decent that you at least took a less overtly violent route.

[Pizza Club]

Originally Posted by antipop

Erm, no. If I had refused any service I would have to face consequences, but here in Austria we have a choice - 6 months of military service or 8 months of alternative civilian service. For historical reasons the only officially accepted motives for choosing the latter are "ethical concerns", hence no guns for antipop.

Is there anything else you aren't allowed to do?

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by jczeroman

This is not my point. My point is that the government is not there to protect us. The idea that I should trust my life, my family and my stuff to a fat 40-something named "Barry" who gets a government salary and has no incentive to serve me - is ludicrous.

i dunno, man. i don't have that much faith in the police force's ability to protect me. but i also don't see a need for me to have a gun. if someone really wants to rob me or kill me, then that'll suck. but i'm not scared enough of that happening to justify wanting to have a gun with me all the time. shit happens, and i might not be prepared for all of it. but i don't see how that's a great justification for needing to carry a weapon.

[Eulogy]

maybe i'm just a pussy.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by jczeroman

good "choice" there.

I still think it is decent that you at least took a less overtly violent route.

Me too.

Originally Posted by Pizza Club

Is there anything else you aren't allowed to do?

I don't think so. Except taking jobs where I'd need guns or rifles, of course.
Oh yeah, and my late grandfather called me "unpatriotic" several times.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

maybe i'm just a pussy.

Not really.

I want a minigun just to kill people with though so you know.

[jczeroman]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

i dunno, man. i don't have that much faith in the police force's ability to protect me. but i also don't see a need for me to have a gun. if someone really wants to rob me or kill me, then that'll suck. but i'm not scared enough of that happening to justify wanting to have a gun with me all the time. shit happens, and i might not be prepared for all of it. but i don't see how that's a great justification for needing to carry a weapon.

Oh yes, I totally agree with you. God knows I didn't want to carry my guns around. My ideal society is not one where everyone's some vigilante with a shotgun and a box of shells in their closet. I just think people who want to defend themselves in this way should be allowed to do so. And I think that the fact that some people will chose to do this will also benefit the people around them more than it will put them at risk.

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by jczeroman

I'd do Karina Vargas.

I'd imagine the guys who go out and buy 20 handguns to "protect" their families would've handled the situation better than the government, huh? And besides, you're in England right now, so if anything I should be threatening you and your nonexistent king with my gun to keep you out of my face. Honestly, I'd rather have guns in the hands of asshole cops than asshole rednecks. I say this as a gun owner.

[agenda suicide]

there's also the fact that any old joker that can legally get a gun quite often doesn't learn how to properly use it. and you have to worry about some scared guy firing his gun at the wrong times. or a thug shooting whoever he so chooses because it makes him feel like a badass. etc etc so on and so fourth.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by jczeroman

Yes, but only if everyone also had ninja suits. And maybe throwing-stars.


And not those crappy origami ones.

I was thinking...

[jczeroman]

Originally Posted by duovamp

I'd do Karina Vargas.

Wait is she related to Elizabeth Vargas. Unf... what happened to her?

Originally Posted by duovamp

I'd imagine the guys who go out and buy 20 handguns to "protect" their families would've handled the situation better than the government, huh? And besides, you're in England right now, so if anything I should be threatening you and your nonexistent king with my gun to keep you out of my face. Honestly, I'd rather have guns in the hands of asshole cops than asshole rednecks. I say this as a gun owner.

No, maybe not that situation, we'll never know. I'm just saying I think it is reckless to set-up a society where one group of people get all of the physical power. These people happen to be the same group that makes all laws. Oh, yes and the only people allowed to interpret these laws. And enforce them. And they are the only arbiter in disputes that involve themselves. Call me crazy - but I don't think this is going to be stable in the long-run.

[jczeroman]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

I was thinking...

YES!

[Trotskilicious]

Now you're on board with my samuraization programme

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by jczeroman

No, maybe not that situation, we'll never know. I'm just saying I think it is reckless to set-up a society where one group of people get all of the physical power. These people happen to be the same group that makes all laws. Oh, yes and the only people allowed to interpret these laws. And enforce them. And they are the only arbiter in disputes that involve themselves. Call me crazy - but I don't think this is going to be stable in the long-run.

I won't defend cops; they piss me off. But in an elected government those people in power represent the people. If you vote right then you don't have to worry about government oppression. ...Unless you like oppression.

[jczeroman]

Originally Posted by duovamp

If you vote right then you don't have to worry about government oppression. ...Unless you like oppression.

Somehow, I just don't think it's that simple. Maybe I'm over-thinking it.

But then again, I would probably trust people with guns before I'd trust them to vote for this monopoly power system that is somehow going to just restrain itself out of the goodness of it's heart.

[Trotskilicious]

I'm oppressed.

The gov't won't let me have a missile launcher.

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

Help, help! I'm being oppressed!

[jczeroman]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

I'm oppressed.

The gov't won't let me have a missile launcher.

You should be able to have a missile launcher. Why does the government have a right to pre-emptively assume you will commit a crime or be negligent. Is this not the same justification for invading Iraq or Iran? Or racial profiling? Or banning drugs and alcohol?

If you use a missile launcher or make credible aggressive threats with said launcher, then I hope they toss you in jail and throw away the key. But you aren't guilty of homicidal missile launching just because you have the capacity to do it.

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by jczeroman

But then again, I would probably trust people with guns before I'd trust them to vote for this monopoly power system that is somehow going to just restrain itself out of the goodness of it's heart.

I trust myself to vote enough to control that government and prevent my neighbors from accidentally firing a bullet through one of my walls into the side of my head. Of course, my neighbors voted for Bush when he was running for reelection... so the issue here isn't the government at all so much as irresponsible people in general. We need to focus our efforts on irresponsibility.

We can start by seriously addressing this samuraization proposal.

[barden]

i could get a gun pretty easily here.
going the official way is pretty hard, which is modertaly reassuring I guess, cause they make it pretty hard in SA. But as I said, I could get a gun pretty easy and I'm a stupid suburban white guy. So yeah.

[jczeroman]

Originally Posted by barden

i could get a gun pretty easily here.
going the official way is pretty hard, which is modertaly reassuring I guess, cause they make it pretty hard in SA. But as I said, I could get a gun pretty easy and I'm a stupid suburban white guy. So yeah.

case-in-point.

[duovamp]

I hear you can get an AK in Africa for 20 dollars. My source may or may not be extremely hot singer/songwriter M.I.A.

[barden]

20 dollars is how much in rand at the moment?
like, R300?

nah, more then that.

[jczeroman]

Originally Posted by duovamp

We need to focus our efforts on irresponsibility.

Individual responsibility is inherently, by definition, an intrinsic value. The answer is not for "us" to focus on other people's responsibility - this is not physically possible. Even externalities such as laws, punishment, etc... are only going to, at best, mask irresponsibility (by surface compliance) and at worst create power-structures where such irresponsible people now are in a much greater position to externalise their irresponsibility onto innocents.

Rather it is for us to be responsible ourselves. We need to non-aggressively promote the kind of peaceful, well-ordered, responsible lifestyle and set a good example.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by jczeroman

If you use a missile launcher or make credible aggressive threats with said launcher, then I hope they toss you in jail and throw away the key. But you aren't guilty of homicidal missile launching just because you have the capacity to do it.

Seriously though bro...uh you know I'd rather people go "i don't care what you want it for you're not getting a missile launcher" just to save the dozen or so people from the explosion...you know?

[jczeroman]

This is the longest I've spent on this website in one session in years.

[Trotskilicious]

I'M DOING MY BEST.

[barden]

if I had like R1500 or maybe R2000 and I was serious about getting an AK i probably could.

[jczeroman]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

I'M DOING MY BEST.

Yea, well it's way past my bedtime. Fortunately no sex for a few days so I'm not missing anything worth going to bed for.

[Debaser]

i remember hashing this out pretty well in some other old thread (started by *************?).