Netphoria Message Board


Go Back   Netphoria Message Board > Archives > Pumpkins Archive
Register Netphoria's Amazon.com Link Members List Mark Forums Read

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-21-2007, 04:09 PM   #61
vanilla
Minion of Satan
 
vanilla's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,809
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroplane
Jesus Camp . . . welcome to my childhood.
ditto. that is some scary shit.

and i went through the same things as you...my parents not letting me listen to the pumpkins. but that was when i was 15-16. they eventually lightened up.

 
vanilla is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 04:27 PM   #62
Aeroplane
Minion of Satan
 
Aeroplane's Avatar
 
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the antipop
Heh.
i refuse to acknowledge this comment.


shit.

 
Aeroplane is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 04:29 PM   #63
Aeroplane
Minion of Satan
 
Aeroplane's Avatar
 
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanilla
ditto. that is some scary shit.

and i went through the same things as you...my parents not letting me listen to the pumpkins. but that was when i was 15-16. they eventually lightened up.
i think parents have one of two options as they get older - lighten up, or become even more grouchy/judgemental/difficult/unlikable.

i believe everything's black and white, too.

 
Aeroplane is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 04:34 PM   #64
Virex Kills
Apocalyptic Poster
 
Virex Kills's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,085
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by caroline
If someone asks me about my faith, I'll talk their ears off, but I don't go around proselytizing.
Its funny you say that, cause Ive always wondered why people get so flustered when others diss their beliefs. Like skipgo said, Ithink because it was an undeniable moment for me, its not as much a set of beliefs I ascribe to, as much as it is just...uhm...something inside me that gives me a certain drive. The thing is, its not for ME, you know? Like...I doubt all this is just for me to have a nice happy peaceful life. I LOVE hearing other people's stories and just...encouraging them to step out into what it means for them to be fully alive. I see so many people sucked into the drearyness of every day work, for the sake of what? Not that work is bad, just...work that isnt who you are.
I met the assistant dean of the largest seminary in Canada, and she called me an idealist, telling me I need to be realistic. But hey, its worked so far!

 
Virex Kills is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 04:34 PM   #65
skipgo
Minion of Satan
 
skipgo's Avatar
 
Location: i'm a horrible human being
Posts: 9,141
Default

my kid told me the other day that she thinks everything in the 50's was black and white. As in, you know, really black and white. Kids are funny.

 
skipgo is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 04:36 PM   #66
skipgo
Minion of Satan
 
skipgo's Avatar
 
Location: i'm a horrible human being
Posts: 9,141
Default

idealists are my favorite kind of people.

 
skipgo is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 04:36 PM   #67
Aeroplane
Minion of Satan
 
Aeroplane's Avatar
 
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
Default

it WAS. that's colour photography you're looking at - it's just, there's was no colour!

 
Aeroplane is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 04:42 PM   #68
skipgo
Minion of Satan
 
skipgo's Avatar
 
Location: i'm a horrible human being
Posts: 9,141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroplane
it WAS. that's colour photography you're looking at - it's just, there's was no colour!
well now there's something to chew on!
you've just blown my mind.

 
skipgo is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 04:43 PM   #69
waltermcphilp
Socialphobic
 
waltermcphilp's Avatar
 
Location: I DO C-C-C-COCAINE
Posts: 11,137
Default

like in the book "The Giver". what an odd one that was.

 
waltermcphilp is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 04:46 PM   #70
skipgo
Minion of Satan
 
skipgo's Avatar
 
Location: i'm a horrible human being
Posts: 9,141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waltermcphilp
like in the book "The Giver". what an odd one that was.
i hadn't heard of that one, so i just looked it up on wikipedia. sounds kinda like an interesting read.

 
skipgo is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 04:53 PM   #71
waltermcphilp
Socialphobic
 
waltermcphilp's Avatar
 
Location: I DO C-C-C-COCAINE
Posts: 11,137
Default

i read it in 8th grade. it blew my young mind.

 
waltermcphilp is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 04:53 PM   #72
caroline
Pledge
 
caroline's Avatar
 
Posts: 106
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virex Kills
Its funny you say that, cause Ive always wondered why people get so flustered when others diss their beliefs. Like skipgo said, Ithink because it was an undeniable moment for me, its not as much a set of beliefs I ascribe to, as much as it is just...uhm...something inside me that gives me a certain drive. The thing is, its not for ME, you know? Like...I doubt all this is just for me to have a nice happy peaceful life. I LOVE hearing other people's stories and just...encouraging them to step out into what it means for them to be fully alive. I see so many people sucked into the drearyness of every day work, for the sake of what? Not that work is bad, just...work that isnt who you are.
I met the assistant dean of the largest seminary in Canada, and she called me an idealist, telling me I need to be realistic. But hey, its worked so far!
Amen, my friend Virex. No matter who may diss your beliefs, they can't deny what you went through when you first believed. I still remember it clear as day even though that was 20 years ago (geez! I feel old now). I will raise my daughter in a Christian manner and introduce her to the faith, but I want her to be a Christian because it is what she believes and not just because her parents believe. I want her to know why she believes what she does so when her faith is tested, it won't be the end of the world. Right now she's only 2.5 so she's more into Dora the Explorer than anything spiritual. lol!

 
caroline is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 04:55 PM   #73
Aeroplane
Minion of Satan
 
Aeroplane's Avatar
 
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
Default

what if she decides she doesn't believe? how will you feel? react? be honest.

 
Aeroplane is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 04:58 PM   #74
caroline
Pledge
 
caroline's Avatar
 
Posts: 106
Default

I will just have to have faith that she will eventually believe. I am already praying for her daily. I can't push it on her, but it will sadden me if she doesn't. I think that's where a lot of Christian parents go wrong. It's as if they don't have faith in God or their kids to find Jesus out of his/her own choice. Did that make sense? I feel like I can't type or express myself today. lol!

 
caroline is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 05:00 PM   #75
Aeroplane
Minion of Satan
 
Aeroplane's Avatar
 
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
Default

It makes sense. My parents prayed for me everyday too, and felt the same way, but I don't believe. I'm not saying this to freak you out, but when someone says, "I really want my child to believe not because I do, but because they found the truth on their own," I hope they realise that there's a good chance that child will find another truth to believe in. Something different from yours. I respect my parents belief, but I don't share it.

 
Aeroplane is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 05:17 PM   #76
skipgo
Minion of Satan
 
skipgo's Avatar
 
Location: i'm a horrible human being
Posts: 9,141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroplane
what if she decides she doesn't believe? how will you feel? react? be honest.
that's a really good question aeroplane. I don't know how I'll feel, but probably like Caroline, I'll be sad. But the fact is, no matter WHAT you do, you can't make someone believe what you want them to believe. Whether you push them or you're more subtle, either way the child will grow up to believe what he or she wants to believe. I'm honestly not sure how I'll react if my daughter grows up and doesn't believe. (she believes now, but then again she believes in santa and the tooth fairy too...) I guess I'll have to cross that bridge if/when I get to it. Hopefully it would be something that I'd handle gracefully.

 
skipgo is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 05:30 PM   #77
Aeroplane
Minion of Satan
 
Aeroplane's Avatar
 
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
Default

This is how I put it to my parents, and ever since, we've just moved on. "If you truly believe in a merciful, all-loving God, then that God doesn't need constant edification and will love his creation no matter what they do. And if such a God is truly all-loving and merciful, why would he EVER create a hell that would cast those he loves into forever damnation? It makes no sense. I have chosen not to believe in any such God, but if you believe, then rest assured that in the end, I very well may stand corrected before Him/Her and still be fully accepted."

Even if I was a Christian, I wouldn't believe in hell. Such a contradiction.

 
Aeroplane is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 05:37 PM   #78
Siva-Man
Amish Rake Fighter
 
Posts: 9
Default

Testimony time? Here's mine:

I grew up thinking I was a Christian. I didn't do drugs. I didn't drink. I didn't sleep around (except I secretly really wanted to). I didn't swear (except when no one was listening). I read my Bible regularly (except I didn't really like it). I thought I was a pretty righteous dude. But when I hit my 20s it all came crashing down.

I entered a period of doubt, extreme-fear, and depression and all my "sinlessness" did nothing to help me. I would lay awake late into the night fearing death. I was sure that I was going insane and that terrified me. (For example: one night I laid awake early into the morning fearing that my tongue was too big.) I was obsessed with sex and this caused massive guilt and I had no ability to shake either. I was hugely nostalgic: All I wanted was to be a little kid again. At this time, I was making close to six figures at my job. I owned my own home - a long ambition of mine. And I was (still am) married to a wonderful girl and we had two kids. These were all things I had dreamed about and none of them made me happy. The job and the house just stressed me out. The wife and the kids just made me sad because the kids were going to grow up and I or the wife were going to be separated by death someday. This went on for about two years.

In the midst of all this I got "saved". I now thank God for that horrible period of my life because in the midst of my depression and terror, my faith became real. Just reading a few verses from the Bible would bring me to tears because it spoke so directly to my state of decay. Church service was like a beacon of light at the end of each week - during the service I could feel the presence of Christ and it brought such peace. In those few hours I wasn't afraid of dying or the future. In that time I truly "found" Jesus.

Honestly, I think every person comes to Christ this way: Broken, terrified, guilt-ridden. Become a Christian isn't like climbing to the top of a mountain, it's like being rescued from a pit. Before I knew Christ, I had worked out my own religion that for all appearances looked like Christianity. But this religion was driving me to insanity instead of saving me. But when I finally came to Christ, desperate for a rescue from myself, wretched and afraid - well, it was literally like being born again. I had come through the birth canal and was blinking and alive in a new world. In the years, since then I feel like I've rediscovered the joy I had as a child - only it's greater.

Anyway, that's my story.

 
Siva-Man is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 06:04 PM   #79
Siva-Man
Amish Rake Fighter
 
Posts: 9
Default

Quote:
Even if I was a Christian, I wouldn't believe in hell. Such a contradiction.
Interestingly enough, when I seriously doubted the existence of God is when Hell seemed the realest too me. Especially at night.

Think about it: What happens to our physic energy when we die? If there is no heaven, what happens to it? This world is so wonderful, our bodies so comforting, everything is logical. But what if it's all a thin rind over a much more horrible existence? But what happens when our bodied are stripped away and we sink to whatever metaphysical reality lies beneath the physical world? Are ghosts just manifestations of decaying mental energy, desperately trying to hold on to the physical membrane so they don't descend further into the non-world? It would certainly explain why ghosts haunt their old houses. They're trying to retain something of the real world.

Also, what a horror to meet a loved one in that state of existence! To love with no hands to touch, no lips to kiss, and no arms to hold. It would be living in a nightmare. This future seemed very plausible to me when I doubted the existence of God and also very much like Hell. So when I did become a Christian the physical resurrection of Christ and all its implications was an enormous comfort to me.

 
Siva-Man is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 06:09 PM   #80
Aeroplane
Minion of Satan
 
Aeroplane's Avatar
 
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
Default

I'm glad you find comfort in it. Watever is true for is great. Hell became less real to me after I realised I WASN'T a Christian - I believe it was a fear tactic mainly used by the church in the Middle Ages that continues to this day.

I don't know what happens when we die. If anything, we return to where we came - non existence. Or we simply get recycled and come back. Who knows. But I don't believe in some alternate universe where we suffer for eternity because the five senses that "God" gaves us (sight, smell, touch, hear, taste) showed us He didn't exist. How can such a loving God ask us to believe in him when the very senses he gave us said he doens't exist, but then he expects us to use those same senses to get through life for everything else? It's not about doubt and faith - it's about the character of God and the contradictions that lie within it. God in the Bible is inconsistent - to me, that's a huge sign of man's inconsistencies in creating a God to believe in.

 
Aeroplane is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 06:14 PM   #81
waltermcphilp
Socialphobic
 
waltermcphilp's Avatar
 
Location: I DO C-C-C-COCAINE
Posts: 11,137
Default

remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

 
waltermcphilp is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 06:16 PM   #82
Aeroplane
Minion of Satan
 
Aeroplane's Avatar
 
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
Default

i like you.

 
Aeroplane is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 06:19 PM   #83
Mayfuck
Banned
 
Location: i'm from japan also hollywood
Posts: 57,805
Default

@this thread

anyway, I guess I'm more appreciative of being raised by nearly complete secular, yet self-described catholic parents after reading this thread.

 
Mayfuck is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 06:24 PM   #84
mccririck
Apocalyptic Poster
 
mccririck's Avatar
 
Location: Spa
Posts: 3,884
Default

"Jesus was an only son for you"

I've never understood that line. He was an only son for me? wtf?

 
mccririck is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 06:28 PM   #85
exactlythesame
Minion of Satan
 
exactlythesame's Avatar
 
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeroplane
I'm glad you find comfort in it. Watever is true for is great. Hell became less real to me after I realised I WASN'T a Christian - I believe it was a fear tactic mainly used by the church in the Middle Ages that continues to this day.

I don't know what happens when we die. If anything, we return to where we came - non existence. Or we simply get recycled and come back. Who knows. But I don't believe in some alternate universe where we suffer for eternity because the five senses that "God" gaves us (sight, smell, touch, hear, taste) showed us He didn't exist. How can such a loving God ask us to believe in him when the very senses he gave us said he doens't exist, but then he expects us to use those same senses to get through life for everything else? It's not about doubt and faith - it's about the character of God and the contradictions that lie within it. God in the Bible is inconsistent - to me, that's a huge sign of man's inconsistencies in creating a God to believe in.
The God of the Bible is consistent; the God most churches portray is not.

Hellfire isn't taught in the Bible, as waltermcphilip pointed out. God told Adam and Eve after they sinned "For dust you are, and to dust you will return," at Genesis 3:19.

For further proof of this, see Ezekiel 18:4 - "The soul that is sinning -- it itself will die." No immortal soul that burns in a fiery hell.

Another scripture that clarifies the meaning of the term "Sheol" or "Hades" (commonly translated as "hell"), Ecclesiastes 9:10 states: "All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going."

Consequently, Sheol / Hades refers to the common grave of mankind, and not a place of eternal torment.

In short, you're right in believing there's a contradiction between the loving nature of God and the doctrine of hellfire. "God is love," says 1 John 4:8.

EDIT: I usually refrain from speaking about religion on the internet, and will probably turn down any challenges by people who disagree with the Scriptures I quoted, but the subject was present, so I figured I'd add what I could.

 
exactlythesame is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 06:30 PM   #86
i_adore_adore
Apocalyptic Poster
 
i_adore_adore's Avatar
 
Location: IL
Posts: 3,559
Default

I've met many semi-Christian folk (I mean in the sense that they've taken the Christian faith and modified it to suit their logic) who don't believe in Satan or Hell, but that just baffles me! I don't believe human beings go to Hell at all... but I believe it's the home of Satan, all alone or with his demons (as God has His angels).

See... since I DO believe in God (like I said, my own idea of God, not necessarily the Bible version) I can't not believe in Satan (or a Satan-like being). There can never be good without evil, because there is nothing to compare it to. If there was only good, it wouldn't be good anymore. It would be normal. There needs to be dark to have any light.

Like... what makes Aragorn so noble and strong? The fact that other men are weak to the power of the Ring. If there wasn't that weakness, the goodness and strength of Aragorn would mean nothing, and he would just be another man.

(hehe, watched LOTR today for the first time in a year... It's a sort of tradition that I watch them right before school starts up again. Mmmm good stuff)

 
i_adore_adore is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 06:32 PM   #87
exactlythesame
Minion of Satan
 
exactlythesame's Avatar
 
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_adore_adore
I've met many semi-Christian folk (I mean in the sense that they've taken the Christian faith and modified it to suit their logic) who don't believe in Satan or Hell, but that just baffles me! I don't believe human beings go to Hell at all... but I believe it's the home of Satan, all alone or with his demons (as God has His angels).

See... since I DO believe in God (like I said, my own idea of God, not necessarily the Bible version) I can't not believe in Satan (or a Satan-like being). There can never be good without evil, because there is nothing to compare it to. If there was only good, it wouldn't be good anymore. It would be normal. There needs to be dark to have any light.

Like... what makes Aragorn so noble and strong? The fact that other men are weak to the power of the Ring. If there wasn't that weakness, the goodness and strength of Aragorn would mean nothing, and he would just be another man.

(hehe, watched LOTR today for the first time in a year... It's a sort of tradition that I watch them right before school starts up again. Mmmm good stuff)
LOTR = bad example in philosophical debates.


 
exactlythesame is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 06:33 PM   #88
i_adore_adore
Apocalyptic Poster
 
i_adore_adore's Avatar
 
Location: IL
Posts: 3,559
Default

i_adore_adore = bad philosophical debator

 
i_adore_adore is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 06:34 PM   #89
Aeroplane
Minion of Satan
 
Aeroplane's Avatar
 
Location: fine. i must finally admit it: LA, CA
Posts: 8,579
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by exactlythesame
The God of the Bible is consistent; the God most churches portray is not.

Hellfire isn't taught in the Bible, as waltermcphilip pointed out. God told Adam and Eve after they sinned "For dust you are, and to dust you will return," at Genesis 3:19.

For further proof of this, see Ezekiel 18:4 - "The soul that is sinning -- it itself will die." No immortal soul that burns in a fiery hell.

Another scripture that clarifies the meaning of the term "Sheol" or "Hades" (commonly translated as "hell"), Ecclesiastes 9:10 states: "All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going."

Consequently, Sheol / Hades refers to the common grave of mankind, and not a place of eternal torment.

In short, you're right in believing there's a contradiction between the loving nature of God and the doctrine of hellfire. "God is love," says 1 John 4:8.

EDIT: I usually refrain from speaking about religion on the internet, and will probably turn down any challenges by people who disagree with the Scriptures I quoted, but the subject was present, so I figured I'd add what I could.
I agree somewhat. I never really mentioned the Bible - I mentioned the church in the middle ages and what Christians teach.

However, where do you think the Bible came from? Humans. Christians. It's not infallible. It wasn't until the Nicence Council in 300 AD that what is contained in the Bible was voted on to be *******d.

And guess what? It was at this same council that they VOTED to call Jesus the Son of God. Up until that point, they never officially acknowledged him as such. Technically, Jesus never claimed it.

So I go back to the inconsistencies. And there are in the Bible as well, but I don't want to get started.

 
Aeroplane is offline
Old 08-21-2007, 06:36 PM   #90
exactlythesame
Minion of Satan
 
exactlythesame's Avatar
 
Location: I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
Posts: 7,676
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccririck
"Jesus was an only son for you"

I've never understood that line. He was an only son for me? wtf?
I think Corgan was pointing out that although he believes in the ransom sacrifice of Christ, he doesn't think it has enough redeeming power to forgive him of his sins.

"And I still believe that I cannot be saved," etc... this theme is found throughout the song.

 
exactlythesame is offline
 


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is On
Google


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:49 PM.




Smashing Pumpkins, Alternative Music
& General Discussion Message Board and Forums
www.netphoria.org - Copyright © 1998-2022