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Old 10-12-2018, 10:53 PM   #121
Elphenor
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Roxy really only has “one” pronto-punk tune, and same with Eno. They’re worth a check out if you haven’t dug into them
Here Comes the Warm Jets could retrospectively be called proto-punk especially the versions of the songs played with the winkies


 
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:57 PM   #122
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worth checking out if you haven't dug into them

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 10:58 PM   #123
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*snarls at you*

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:00 PM   #124
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I mean, I don't hate those songs... They're okay... But compared to Siamese Dream and Gish? not even close

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:01 PM   #125
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I was actually refering to The Winkies and NinSP

but also you suck too like why youtube clips of songs we've obviously heard

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:02 PM   #126
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hey guys this song has a really good solo


 
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:03 PM   #127
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As a little kid I used to think Smashing Pumpkins were so cool



But by the time Adore and Machina came around I was like "man, they fucking suck now"...

The imaging didn't help their case.


 
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:04 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Elphenor View Post
I was actually refering to The Winkies and NinSP

but also you suck too like why youtube clips of songs we've obviously heard
To prove my point about Adore being grossly overrated.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:11 PM   #129
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Go back to your sandbox, Fuzzy...


Last edited by Corgan's Bluff : 10-12-2018 at 11:17 PM.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:39 PM   #130
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record sales tell you... how much a record sold

that's it
It means lots and lots of people sacrificed a bit of their paycheck in order to hear someones music without having to wait for it on the radio. It would be elitist to say that the album wasn't "good music" despite being in such high demand. It's similar to saying Pizza Hut isn't good pizza, which Im sure people say, even though it's the most successful pizza chain in the U.S.

 
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:46 PM   #131
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a lot of times high selling records are indeed what Pizza Hut is to quality pizza

and man I like myself some stuffed crust but I'm not about to sit here and tell you Pizza Hut is objectively good because a lot of people eat there

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 12:36 AM   #132
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Look man, I'm a fan of Billy Corgan and I like plenty of songs of his that are completely overlooked by most fans, but you're completely overrating his prowess. "Corgan's musical genius"... Come on...Sure, he's been a great songwriter at times in his career, but let's be rational and sensible.

Adore and Machina were average albums. Doesn't mean that there isn't some great songs on each release, but as albums they're nothing to write home about.
He took a very strange singing voice and figured out how make something interesting out of it. He's a multi-instrumentalist, playing everything except the drums on most of their recordings. His lead guitar playing style is particularly distinctive, easily recognizable when heard. He not only created a "Smashing Pumpkins sound" that they came to be known for. He's very prolific, I don't know where his recorded song count stands, but I'm sure it's easily double what his contemporaries have produced in a similar time frame. And then you add his eccentricity on top of that, and his album sales on top of that, he has very few peers who can boast these same skills and achievements. He reminds me of Prince, in particular.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 12:38 AM   #133
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a lot of times high selling records are indeed what Pizza Hut is to quality pizza

and man I like myself some stuffed crust but I'm not about to sit here and tell you Pizza Hut is objectively good because a lot of people eat there
If you find yourself saying millions of people continue to buy bad pizza everyday despite themselves, you might be an elitist.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:08 AM   #134
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Look man, I'm a fan of Billy Corgan and I like plenty of songs of his that are completely overlooked by most fans, but you're completely overrating his prowess. "Corgan's musical genius"... Come on...Sure, he's been a great songwriter at times in his career, but let's be rational and sensible.

Adore and Machina were average albums. Doesn't mean that there isn't some great songs on each release, but as albums they're nothing to write home about.
Adore was definitely not an average album. It was his last masterpiece after SD and MCIS.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:28 AM   #135
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I think Adore might be their most unique album. I can't think of anything that came close to it, but then again it dabbled in the genre of electronic pop which I wasn't really into otherwise.

I also think that when people criticize Machina and even Zeitgeist for not reaching 90's level success, they don't acknowledge that the simple fact that we're not living in the 90's means this will never happen. Even by 2000, alt rock was pretty much out, nu metal was in. You can't come out with a disco dancer, or a hair metal rock album, and expect the same success they had in the 70's or 80's, forty years later. A lot of bands who were big over the past decades still release albums that sell a tiny fraction of what they pushed in their hayday, but they don't get called "flops", it's just quietly acknowledged that the commercial eye has turned its gaze elsewhere. Smashing Pumkin's albums are called flops because people hate Billy Corgan and won't pass up an opportunity to throw shade. They'll probably criticize his burial plot after he's dead.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:14 AM   #136
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Adore is a great album. Overall quality is definitely in the same realm as SD and MCIS. If MI and MII had all the good songs under one moniker, that album would be in the same league too

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:32 AM   #137
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Can you really say what made those Machina I and II songs not as good, though? The whole idea of saying this song is good, that song is bad, is very amorphous and whimsical. Whether a song is deemed good or bad is a convoluted process of groupthink on an Internet-wide scale. I remember a fifteen or so years ago on some forum, maybe this one, saying I though Whir was a good song and should have been on Siamese Dream, and I got shouted down by people saying it sucked and it ended up where it belonged. I learned my lesson. Whir is a shitty song. Let it be known.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:35 AM   #138
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If you find yourself saying millions of people continue to buy bad pizza everyday despite themselves, you might be an elitist.
I would say it's because they don't know any better or more likely don't care that much

that's why I eat at pizza hut sometimes even though there's clearly superior pizza for comparable price just a bit out of the way

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:36 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks View Post
Can you really say what made those Machina I and II songs not as good, though? The whole idea of saying this song is good, that song is bad, is very amorphous and whimsical. Whether a song is deemed good or bad is a convoluted process of groupthink on an Internet-wide scale. I remember a fifteen or so years ago on some forum, maybe this one, saying I though Whir was a good song and should have been on Siamese Dream, and I got shouted down by people saying it sucked and it ended up where it belonged. I learned my lesson. Whir is a shitty song. Let it be known.
you're having some kind of philosophy 101 revelation. I can't help you.

by morn you will be struggling sleeplessly with the knowledge that there is no objective truth and in fact all arguments of quality are based on personal vantage point and context

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:43 AM   #140
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you're having some kind of philosophy 101 revelation. I can't help you.

by morn you will be struggling sleeplessly with the knowledge that there is no objective truth and in fact all arguments of quality are based on personal vantage point and context
"Adore is a great album. Overall quality is definitely in the same realm as SD and MCIS. " ... confidently declared by the person who then preaches about the subjective nature of everything.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:45 AM   #141
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I would say it's because they don't know any better or more likely don't care that much

that's why I eat at pizza hut sometimes even though there's clearly superior pizza for comparable price just a bit out of the way
This country has like 300 million people and there 16,796 Pizza Hut locations in the U.S. There is no accident here, no "oops, I ordered shitty pizza by mistake." Pizza Hut's dominance over the food stuff known as pizza is as much of constant as the sun rinsing and falling. Even you coyly admit you give in to it's greatness.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:54 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks View Post
"Adore is a great album. Overall quality is definitely in the same realm as SD and MCIS. " ... confidently declared by the person who then preaches about the subjective nature of everything.
I never claimed to be making an objective argument. All claims are biased by a person's experiences and perspective constraints, but that doesn't mean we should just stop talking about everything because objectivity doesn't exist.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:54 AM   #143
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I admit to the convenience

man I don't know what to say if you think Pizza Hut is popular because it's actually good pizza

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:56 AM   #144
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my eating habits do reflect most people's listening habits though

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:20 AM   #145
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This is the heart of the conversation about the worth of art though, isn't it? Like 50 Shades of Grey is one the of the most popular books of all time. Have you ever tried to read it? It's objectively awful.

But... I remember going on holiday to Spain in 2012 and around the pool at the hotel almost everyone was reading it. Literally. If there were two people sat together, one of them would be reading a 50 Shades book. And they didn't just read the first one, they willingly went out to get the sequels. They queued around the block when the movies came out and booked their tickets months in advance.

By every measure of traditional literary/artistic judgement those books are bad. Poorly written, cliched, terrible characters, questionable relationship to kink and power... But people didn't just buy them, they enjoyed them. Who are we to say that means they're bad books? I once reviewed an Adam Sandler movie, it wasn't press screened so I bought a ticket on a Saturday afternoon and was surrounded by people who LOVED it, they laughed their asses off all the way through. I didn't crack a smile once, I found it awful. It didn't make me feel superior though, it made me feel out of touch "what am I missing here"?

I guess my point is, and I say this a professional critic, who are we to say what's "good art"?

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 07:22 AM   #146
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Actually, I wonder if he thinks D'arcy ruined his chances this year? "They want a positive, marketable image on stage, and it doesn't look good when an original member doesn't show up! AAUUGH!!"
Have you ever seen the clip of Blondie's inauguration? It is awkward as fuck. Old members literally pleading Debbie Harry to let them play.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:39 AM   #147
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whir is top ten tsp

fuck you monuments

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 10:21 AM   #148
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Pizza Hut and Dominos are so popular because of A) brilliant marketing to ignorant people who are unwilling to expand their horizons, B) the ability to deliver the EXACT product every time, C) cheap, fast, and convenient

Brand loyalty is huge everywhere we look. People go to the same place to get their haircut. They go the same restaurants and order the same food at those restaurants. They buy the same make and model of cars. Watch the same TV shows. Listen to the same music over and over. Play the same games.

I am not speaking of everyone, just generally what I have noticed. People would rather do what they have always done to get an above average result than try something new that could result in a great result or a worse result.

 
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Old 10-13-2018, 12:01 PM   #149
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Here Comes the Warm Jets could retrospectively be called proto-punk especially the versions of the songs played with the winkies
Yeah these versions are OK, but I prefer the originals.

Eno is obviously a big influence on post-punk sounds - see Talking Heads. He is sort of like Neil Young, in that he has two divergent interests: ambient and rock (like Young for rock and folk). Only Eno is even more influential due to his prolific producing.

More reasons to put Roxy Music in HoF.




 
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Old 10-13-2018, 12:01 PM   #150
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Like "Crestfallen" is seen as a fan-favorite across the community, but really, it's not very well written

Sounds rather bloated, really.

And then there's tracks like this that sound dated as fuck
I still really like Adore, but I verrrry rarely reach to put it on and listen front to back. It's super long. And heavy.

Crestfallen is such a weird one for me: even though I'm a guy who posts on Netphoria in 2018 who got Adore the day it came out and probably have listened to it over 100 times, I always forget "how it goes", if that makes sense. By no means one of my favorites from the album.

As for Appels - the other day it came up on shuffle in the car and my wife (who, again, is married to a dude who is on Netphoria in 2018 and is a good SP fan) said "are we really going to listen to this? Why is it spelled like that?" That song did NOT age well.

 
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