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Old 07-27-2019, 12:01 PM   #361
Woody
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Eyes View Post
Thank you for that meaningless anecdote.
What made it was the reference to 4 minutes of audio nobody on this forum has or wants access to.

For the record I have a ton of home recordings better than SP 3.0 and I just keep it in a vault. People say it's the best work I've ever done and it's just sat there.

 
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Old 07-27-2019, 01:38 PM   #362
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The music would be so much better if they’d just jam

 
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Old 07-27-2019, 03:02 PM   #363
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The music would be so much better if they’d just jam
I think this is a lot of the problem with rock music today. None of it really sounds like a band in the room anymore. I like what METZ are doing as they have a raw In Utero type sound to their music. But most rock music today, It's all piecemeal production / editing / splicing together people who aren't even in the same room nor played together at the same time. It sounds all too sterile and lifeless. A lot of the edge is lost.

Pumpkins were all about not playing to a click, but now they're slaves to it. The same happened to Korn around the time of Issues. I ain't a huge fan of Korn, but I'm big enough into music to hear that there was a huge change with them and a lot of that came from playing to a click and not recording together in a room anymore. Their original drummer would come out later and say the very same exact thing.

If Billy and co. can get together to rehearse for a tour, then get together and jam out some frigging tracks. Even if the tracks were written by Billy separately and he just got some of the structure somewhat down, it would still benefit to bring the guys in to actually perform these songs first before just recording parts alone. A lots of new ideas and changes can come out of the jamming environment and help take the song up a notch. It's not the greatest song, but Solara developed a bit with James actually there on guitar. But you got sterile, isolated recordings that are then overproduced and glossed up to the point of sounding inhuman.

 
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Old 07-27-2019, 03:15 PM   #364
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But that's what they did. They demoed 20+ songs together Billy's now working on them and writing more songs along the process.

 
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Old 07-27-2019, 03:53 PM   #365
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But that's what they did. They demoed 20+ songs together Billy's now working on them and writing more songs along the process.
It doesn't sound like James nor Jeff were even in the studio. Just sounds like Billy showed some song ideas he recorded alone. Jimmy just sat there and was like, "Yea, that's cool. That needs work. That sucks." And when it does come time to record them, they won't be playing them live together. Each member will come in on their free time and perform their parts alone.

 
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Old 07-28-2019, 01:36 AM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Eyes View Post
Thank you for that meaningless anecdote.
My pleasure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody View Post
What made it was the reference to 4 minutes of audio nobody on this forum has or wants access to.
Well I think that was the crux of the thesis

 
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Old 07-28-2019, 05:03 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by MyKeyZ View Post
It doesn't sound like James nor Jeff were even in the studio. Just sounds like Billy showed some song ideas he recorded alone. Jimmy just sat there and was like, "Yea, that's cool. That needs work. That sucks." And when it does come time to record them, they won't be playing them live together. Each member will come in on their free time and perform their parts alone.


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He isn't. They were tracking demos with Howard

They were tho

 
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Old 07-28-2019, 05:08 AM   #368
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:58 AM   #369
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Funny how the year started out with: the 3 of us are going back to the studio to record organically together, we have 30 songs! And 6 months later Billy's deconstructed everything, can't decide on format or songlist, obsessed with modern process, and is tinkering away by himself without assistance with minimal input from Jimmy and James.

He needs a producer or voice of reason to guide his impulses.

 
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Old 07-28-2019, 11:09 AM   #370
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There's no budget for a good producer anymore with this decline of record sales...

 
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Old 07-28-2019, 11:12 AM   #371
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They did exactly that tho, they recorded/worked on a bunch of songs together, and now Billy is revisiting them. Wasn't that how they always worked in general? With Billy revisiting e re-recording stuff? I only hope they had a producer working with them this time.

I wished James could produce their album. He'd shameless go for the traditional pumpkins sound.

 
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Old 07-29-2019, 05:27 AM   #372
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Is he working with pre-recorded Jimmy tracks? If so then it would be possible for him to edit arrangements and so on. Might interfere with the "flow" of the drums, but if Shiny 1 is anything to go by, there's a lot of repeated sections and patterns in this era's songs.

 
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Old 07-29-2019, 11:44 AM   #373
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He's not wrong though with the need for space and more standout moments.

Lots of the post-2000 songs have felt really rushed, like say a Doomsday Clock. Verse right into chorus. 4 bars of intro riff, back into verse into rushed chorus.

Not a lot of guitar solos or the weird meandering slow down sections they used to put into their songs.

So if he's really critically looking at the way he's writing songs for this album, it might be a good thing.

I'd rather have the Doubting Billy who wants to get it right but isn't sure how than the All-Knowing Billy who has 1 jillion platinum albums and you can fuck off if you don't like what he's doing.

 
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Old 07-29-2019, 12:06 PM   #374
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he needs some kind of deadline though, otherwise it will just spiral

 
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Old 07-29-2019, 10:51 PM   #375
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The crazy thing is Billy could just release rough demos all online right now and it would likely sell more to SP fans who wanna hear unpolished SP insteaded of polished turds.. but yet this production billshit will drag on for another 6 months.

 
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Old 07-30-2019, 06:47 AM   #376
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He should really be working with Butch / Flood / Alan Moulder if he wants to recapture that spark. He's got the old band back together (to a point), so why not the backroom guys as well?

 
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:04 AM   #377
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He should really be working with Butch / Flood / Alan Moulder if he wants to recapture that spark. He's got the old band back together (to a point), so why not the backroom guys as well?
they refuse to ever work with him again.

 
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Old 07-30-2019, 08:09 AM   #378
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lol

Butch didn't seem....pissed off or anything in that SD retrospective interview

 
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Old 07-30-2019, 02:28 PM   #379
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they refuse to ever work with him again.
No they don't. They even talked about it before volume 1.

 
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:10 PM   #380
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Ive said it before- Billy’s best songs were the ones he wrote on the fly, last minute, in his bedroom at 6am, during jam sessions, with little overkill and as simple as possible. etc. When he over thinks, over produces, adds layers, over orchestrates, the songs , and albums, aren’t as great. Unfortunately he sounds like he’s over thinking and overproducing again. Which doesn’t bode well.

 
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Old 07-30-2019, 08:03 PM   #381
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lots of his best material is stuff that is very intricate, stuff like porcelina, rocket - lots of moving parts
the notion that his best songs are the ones he wrote in an hour watching regis and cathy lee is kind of ridiculous imo. yes i love some of those songs, but he clearly thrives when he has good producers helping him flesh out his ideas and adding layers.

yes now he sucks at it and adds stuff he should and has no direction, but it's not the process killing the songs necessarily. it wasn't like that before

 
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:04 PM   #382
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I think his best songs are the good ones. When he doesn't work good songs they are bad.

 
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Old 07-31-2019, 02:27 AM   #383
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Majority of his earlier stuff was under produced, or minimally tinkered with/evolved. Live takes (Starla with sirens in back ground), 1979 last minute addition, AOI last minute, 33, zero, etc done in his home studio and final product ended up very similar. Porcelina, came out of jam sessions and didn’t stray much from original ideas. Contrast that with the change in 99-2000 as highlighted by machina (derived from versions pre arising tour ) and you can see the over productions effect in and on his songs. Yes, butch vig produced and layered on the final product, on SD, that’s not what I mean. When he doubts, when he pushes song further and further from it’s original incarnation, it tends to get muddier, dense, and not as “pure” and well, “successful “. Think the last three albums, where he pushed and twisted and tinkered way too much with the songs, ending in an inferior product, imho. Maybe you like that. Matt walker sessions (ransom soundtrack) which was just a jam session shows this. A lot of the gravity demos were rough tracks done during touring that they put down on tape - but held true to final product. When he over thinks things, it goes sour. He’s not trusting his talent emotion and subconscious. That’s what made him who he is. He’s chasing things too much, over thinking, analyzing things, which to me, isn’t his smartest approach. As proven last three albums. You can even argue zwan- before album was great music, energy and better product-album itself was forced and over thought. Compare. I can guarantee you that he didn’t spend one twentieth as much time thinking and forcing and pushing any song on the pastichio medley as he does the “new” songs and hey, honestly which are “better” - which would you prefer as a product? Plus I don’t like him scheduling Monday to force write a song, Tuesday to force a catchy riff and figure out a bridge, and then sitting in a room with the door shut until a song is constructed. That’s not rock and roll. You can’t have an artist schedule the creation of a masterpiece, it’s not conducive to the imagination or the creative spark. Painters don’t s hedule creativity - that’s what he’s doing now, and that’s why songs are flat. He should be jamming with jimmy and James and see what happens- organically and creatively- not schedule every minute part of the songs production with its sole purpose to appeal to certain customers and demographics and then get upset when people smell your lack of imaginative creative spark!

Last edited by Gooch : 07-31-2019 at 02:39 AM.

 
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Old 07-31-2019, 03:51 AM   #384
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That must be the great wall of text in China we’ve heard so much about.

 
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Old 07-31-2019, 03:52 AM   #385
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Magnificient.

 
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Old 07-31-2019, 04:13 AM   #386
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Creativity comes back when Auggie runs in and plays with some knobs.


 
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:46 AM   #387
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:07 PM   #388
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I really felt what was lacking from the post-2000 SP output was definitely MIDI keyboards.


Another confirmation though that he's reverting to old work habits, so I have some hope the overall quality of the songs will be better.

 
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:39 PM   #389
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at least "electronic percussion elements" gives hope that certain earlier posts didn't necessarily mean post-production washing out of jim chamb's drum recordings

 
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Old 07-31-2019, 05:09 PM   #390
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there's a guy called jimmy who i think knows a bit about drums

maybe get him to do something

 
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