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Old 01-28-2018, 09:16 AM   #61
langley
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I feel like Billy has spent the last 20 years trying not to sound like the first 3 albums. He's fallen victim to the cliché that when bands just release the same old stuff, people get bored. He's trying desperately to make new and different music. The irony here is that in his attempt to not be irrelevant, he has become irrelevant. It's just terrible sounding garbage with no heart. Thin guitars and his awful dogwhistle-pitched voice.
Evolving their sound was what SP were all about. After Mellon Collie BC expected to much of his fanbase and mainstream culture. Adore only went Platnuim, Machina only went Gold..."what's that? number 3 on the billboard 200? Oh God what a tragedy...how can the group go on?"

If SP stayed on (Jimmy, Melissa, Billy and [Insert new James here]) and stuck to their guns artisically SP would have been fine in the end. BC wouldn't have had a complete mental breakdown that came with the end of the band. Rather then leaving a seven year hole waiting to be filled with nostaglia fulled expectations that cannot be met.

Then again, if it were true that SP did everything it could do musically by Machina era then you know, don't revive the band at all?

 
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Old 01-28-2018, 09:20 AM   #62
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Make a new group and I dunno, call it Zwan or something.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:29 PM   #63
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Anyway, I don't think anybody hereabouts could accurately describe what they would estimate to be a "good" SP album in this day and age, knows what it would entail, and certainly wouldn't agree with anyone else on said criteria.
Hi.

I'm new. And I didn't read this whole thread. So sorry if I missed something or am echoing something.

I was on a Smashing Pumpkins message board about 12 years ago and was rather active during the restart with Zeitgeist, which as the most disappointing moment in music history according to me. After that, I stopped paying attention to SP updates and I eventually just moved on, musically to following indie bands until I wound up somewhere between "Of Montreal" and Mongolian throat music (literally... that's no the name of a band).

But recently, I picked up Melon Collie and the Infinite Sadness again, and instantly knew what made that album great (for me).

It was the guitars.

Corgan is a crappy lyricist. Most overdramatic, teenagery nonsense full of words that I'm pretty sure he didn't even give a brain cell's time to before stringing them together.

But he's a decent guitarist. I love his solos, and more importantly, I LOVED the sound of his guitars in Melon Collie (before he went all electronica and murdered every sound wave with overproduction).

Now, I don't know crap about guitars (acoustic or electric), but there are a few particular guitar sounds that stand out to me and make me love a song. One of them is in "Disaster Tourism" by mewithoutYou (the second guitar, not the first. I like the one that echos and screeches like a fanged cat). ...And another is in this album. It's a very full-bodied guitar. It's not as rough as his earlier sounds and not as warped as what comes after. It's warm and filling. That sound makes me fall in love.

After hearing it again, I dug up Zeitgeist out of the bottom of a drawer to see if I just missed something in it. I played through the first 10 seconds of Doomsday Clock (somehow he got more melodramatic and teenagery with time). The guitar sound was hollow. I didn't like it at all. And his vocals were not well mixed with it. It made me appreciate how well balanced the production of Melon Collie was. The sound quality and mixing was just better.

Anyway, all of that was to answer your statement about what a "good" SP album sounds like. Melon Collie was the height of their career for more than just publicity. It was actually a really well done album... in every way except lyrically. Lyrically, Corgan just sucks, and I accept that.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:38 PM   #64
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I actually think he's a very good lyricist and I respect the dude a lot.
Being a teen myself, I don't think his "overdramatic" and "teenagery lyrics" are nonsense in any way.
He's one of the best lyricists of the 90s, I'd say. I'd pick his lyrics over any other band's. they're different, and that's what I love about them.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:49 PM   #65
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MCIS is a bit cheesy, lyrically. But at least the lyrics go somewhere. His work from this decade suffers from him repeating the same line over and over again, hoping it will mean something.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:53 PM   #66
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Hehe. When I was in high school, an adult told me that he had liked Smashing Pumpkins when he was in school, but had since "grown out" of them. I wondered what he meant by that for a long while. Then one day in college I was listening to SP and realized that I had outgrown the lyrics.

It was around the time when Corgan put out his quickly forgotten "poetry book," which sounded like any of his songs, but with no music to mask how dysfunctional his words were.

Around that same time, I was listening to a lot of Bright Eyes, who was awesome and weaving analogies and imagery together. Next to him, Corgan was just a toddler with a speech impediment.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 04:56 PM   #67
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MCIS is a bit cheesy, lyrically. But at least the lyrics go somewhere. His work from this decade suffers from him repeating the same line over and over again, hoping it will mean something.
Well, that an his ego. He's so self-absorbed that he really can't explore anything new. I think Machina and his solo album are a testament to how eye-rollingly painful his ego can be.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 05:07 PM   #68
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never been kissed by a girl like you

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 05:14 PM   #69
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Anyway, all of that was to answer your statement about what a "good" SP album sounds like.
See, you can tell me that "guitars make a good SP album" and while I'd generally agree they're a major part of what we consider a good SP album to be - it's not an absolute, especially when I refer to 'this day and age'. You've got people out there that like the more techno-oriented or danceable songs; It's still weird to me that nowadays more people seem to like TBITEITB than TEITBITE. I wouldn't call Adore a guitar-focused album for the most part, but I love it. Some folks like Dorian. My point would be nobody can agree on what makes SP good a lot of the time, and that's nothing new. I don't think there's been much of a consensus since Adore came out and Bill branched out his sound.

What made SP tops for me during their heyday was Bill's ability to craft imagery and his aim to provoke emotion through sound, and that was through a combination of expressive lyrics, good or interesting production choices, and a wide variety of instrumental choices. 1979 sounds nostalgic the first time you hear it. In The Arms of Sleep evokes late nights, ticking clocks, longing. Bill wrote Disarm specifically with the intent of creating something heartbreaking and beautiful to hurt people who hurt him, and it worked.

See, I think the opposite about his lyrics, or I once did. I think Corgan USED to be a good lyricist - a lot of his lyrics leaned on the juvenile side because oftentimes he was trying to illustrate childhood feelings through the lens of young adulthood, and he was really, really good at that. He's been awful in recent years because his lyrics have devolved into overwrought poetry with little prose, he's been on autopilot, and he's older and might be struggling for something to say at all.

And right about now is when someone shows up and says that they love SP mainly because Jimmy's one badass motherfucker of a drummer. No consensus, I say.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 05:29 PM   #70
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You said you didn't think anyone could say what they think made a good SP album. I answered with what I thought made one. I wasn't intending to speak for anyone else. Of course you'll never get a consensus on anything. Welcome to humanity. We can't even agree on facts.

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What made SP tops for me during their heyday was Bill's ability to craft imagery and his aim to provoke emotion through sound, and that was through a combination of expressive lyrics, good or interesting production choices, and a wide variety of instrumental choices. 1979 sounds nostalgic the first time you hear it. In The Arms of Sleep evokes late nights, ticking clocks, longing. Bill wrote Disarm specifically with the intent of creating something heartbreaking and beautiful to hurt people who hurt him, and it worked.
What you described here was mostly sound-related, not lyric related. The echo and hum of 1979 was definitely a great touch and the fact that he focused on a nameless group of people without singling himself out made it much more relatable.

I stand by my view on his lyrics, though. Even Disarm...

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 06:06 PM   #71
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To add to the above, I said "anyone hereabouts" and "in this day and age" - on Netphoria - where that variety of opinion is commonplace and there's a history of tearing to shreds much of what Bill sends down the pike. My statement refers to the not-entirely-undeserved cynicism on Netphoria that greets a lot of Bill's work. If guitars that sound like the old days on a new album would be what works for you, that's fine, but that's not representative of the history of this place.

Quote:
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What you described here was mostly sound-related, not lyric related.
No. 1979's nostalgic qualities start with its title and pervade every single lyric. The title being a year immediately grounds it in the past, and the song refers to kids of that time - by this point grown, who were free to live in the moment, "not caring where their bones will rest". It reflects on the past experience of being wild and crazy kids and the music video reflects that. "Justine never knew the rules", etc.

And, I mean:

"Peace will not come to this tired body now, sleep will not come to this lonely heart"

Like I said, lyrically evocative of sleeplessness and longing. But if you've always disliked his lyrics I don't know what to tell you.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 07:43 PM   #72
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None of that is very groundbreaking. Nor does it make him a great lyricist. Honestly, Shel Silverstien did more. Ever read the Tortoise and the Bagpipe? Damn stupid poem makes me cry over a tortoise and a freakin' bagpipe.

And hating on Corgan isn't just a Netphoria thing. This is now my 3rd Pumpkin's related forum and they're all pretty much the same. This one is just less purple and its name makes slightly more sense.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 08:08 PM   #73
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Does it need to be 'groundbreaking' (oh, the fun this place has had with that word) in order to be considered good? Not necessarily, but in those instances, it works well enough for me. I've illustrated that they serve the song's atmosphere.

I don't hold songwriters to especially strict lyrical standards, at any rate. I enjoy NIN and the same argument can be applied to most of Trent 's work - he's no great wordsmith while Bill's too much of one. They both do an admirable job of evoking what they need to in my book.

I don't think those forums an boast a nickname like 'Hatephoria' though, whatever they happen to be.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 08:11 PM   #74
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I heard that Billy is gonna be putting bagpipes on the next album.
can't go wrong with that.

he should just give up.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 08:15 PM   #75
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I don't think those forums an boast a nickname like 'Hatephoria' though, whatever they happen to be.
Nah, they're more just dead now. Or at least my favorite is. I can't recall the name of the other one... Apparently it was unremarkable.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 08:17 PM   #76
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I heard that Billy is gonna be putting bagpipes on the next album.
can't go wrong with that.

he should just give up.
I mean... how much worse can it be?

...I'm actually asking. I don't even know what any of his stuff sounds like after Zeitgeist. I once heard American Gothic got better, but never bothered to check it out.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:06 PM   #77
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Don't listen to TGBK. Trust me on that one.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:07 PM   #78
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It might not have bagpipes but it's got a whole kitchen sink of crap.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:10 PM   #79
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Who the hell craps in the kitchen sink?

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:17 PM   #80
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None of that is very groundbreaking. Nor does it make him a great lyricist. Honestly, Shel Silverstien did more. Ever read the Tortoise and the Bagpipe? Damn stupid poem makes me cry over a tortoise and a freakin' bagpipe.

And hating on Corgan isn't just a Netphoria thing. This is now my 3rd Pumpkin's related forum and they're all pretty much the same. This one is just less purple and its name makes slightly more sense.
lol @ comparing him to Shel Silverstein. obviously billy can't compare

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:19 PM   #81
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I mean... how much worse can it be?

...I'm actually asking. I don't even know what any of his stuff sounds like after Zeitgeist. I once heard American Gothic got better, but never bothered to check it out.
Your mileage will vary but IMO:
-American Gothic was mostly nice but forgettable.
-The If All Goes Wrong DVD has a couple of really good numbers that never saw studio recordings.
-Teargarden is worth a listen through once to experience the horror. It made me appreciate Zeitgeist. I'd call Song For A Son the only promising moment.
-Oceania is not amazing but had a few numbers that got me interested in BC's efforts again.
-I consider Monuments to an Elegy to be Bill's nadir as an artist aside from Tiberius.
-Ogilala is pleasant background music with a really good song at the end in the form of Archer.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:19 PM   #82
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I mean... how much worse can it be?

...I'm actually asking. I don't even know what any of his stuff sounds like after Zeitgeist. I once heard American Gothic got better, but never bothered to check it out.
it gets pretty bad, yes. like, i am jealous you haven't heard any of it.

i think it's hilarious though that, despite not keeping up with him, you joined netphoria in 2018 and enjoy posting about corgan. all because of one record where you hate the lyrics but like the guitar sound. i don't mean that in a mean way.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:21 PM   #83
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Your mileage will vary but IMO:
-American Gothic was mostly nice but forgettable.
-The If All Goes Wrong DVD has a couple of really good numbers that never saw studio recordings.
-Teargarden is worth a listen through once to experience the horror. It made me appreciate Zeitgeist. I'd call Song For A Son the only promising moment.
-Oceania is not amazing but had a few numbers that got me interested in BC's efforts again.
-I consider Monuments to an Elegy to be Bill's nadir as an artist aside from Tiberius.
-Ogilala is pleasant background music with a really good song at the end in the form of Archer.
this is a good analysis. there is also a song called "half-life of an auto-didact" (really) on ogilala that is good

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:45 PM   #84
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it gets pretty bad, yes. like, i am jealous you haven't heard any of it.

i think it's hilarious though that, despite not keeping up with him, you joined netphoria in 2018 and enjoy posting about corgan. all because of one record where you hate the lyrics but like the guitar sound. i don't mean that in a mean way.
Why thank you!

It was a really good guitar sound.

 
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Old 02-05-2018, 10:57 PM   #85
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Ogilala's actually pretty nice when you're walking in a nice park where it's cold and very sunny at the same time.

Dust and Ashes, TGBK is definitely the best SP album ever made pls check it out thankyouverymuch

 
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:01 AM   #86
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Who the hell craps in the kitchen sink?
if you don't understand what i mean, then go ahead and check it out!

Oceania is probably the most interesting musically, but the lyrics are exceptionally banal and seem to be full of inside references that only Billy and his shape-shifting guru know. Also the drummer was a 12 year old.

Monuments To An Elegy probably has about 100 words total, what with all the repetition. It's short, though. So if you want to listen to it, it will be over quickly at least.

If you haven't heard anyhting since Zeitgeist and additionally haven't followed Billy's full descent into the present, prepare to be a little shocked.

Last edited by ilikeplanets : 02-06-2018 at 12:06 AM.

 
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:01 AM   #87
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yes, you should def. do it, Dust and Ashes. I listened to all of TGBK for the first time in one go a few years ago. an unforgettable experience.

 
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:04 AM   #88
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Oh, I didn't see Shadaloo's superior descriptions. I still stand by what I said.

 
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Old 02-06-2018, 01:20 AM   #89
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We are all too old for magic

 
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Old 02-06-2018, 04:25 AM   #90
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Who the hell craps in the kitchen sink?
4 Real. Especially when there's the shower.

 
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