Kim Gordon: "Billy Corgan, whom nobody liked because he was such a crybaby"

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

I don't want my Rockstars to be good, normal people. They're characters.

good, yes. normal can go either way.

[fuzzyroes]

Who the fuck cares what a musician is like as long as the music is great?

[reprise85]

I don't really care because I don't read about most artists, but if I do read about them and they are giant assholes who sing love songs or write really sincere sounding lyrics it definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like Corgan. It almost feels to me like he was lying in his songs and that bothers me because I ate it up. But I think he is just very dissociative or something, I don't know how someone can fake something like Mayonaise or Hummer or Tonight, Tonight etc

[Elphenor]

He's a permanent teenager it's his thing. It's actually refreshing that it isn't an act, he really just is that insecure and moody

[Elphenor]

Like that story about him going "you hurt me deep in here" while tapping the Superman logo on his shirt made for 11 year olds is just legendary

[Rider]

Originally Posted by reprise85

I don't really care because I don't read about most artists, but if I do read about them and they are giant assholes who sing love songs or write really sincere sounding lyrics it definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like Corgan. It almost feels to me like he was lying in his songs and that bothers me because I ate it up. But I think he is just very dissociative or something, I don't know how someone can fake something like Mayonaise or Hummer or Tonight, Tonight etc

I think he has always been manipulative. I think he felt some of those songs, but I think the epic grandeur was all just him be a cold calculated songwriter. Also remember where he was when he wrote most of that stuff living alone in a parking garage. I think once he got the fame and money he became colder and more calculating. Adore is all love songs but they are all really dark and selfish and fucked up when you look closely at them. Machina he gets really distant and calculated and the album and everything he talks about are people letting him down.

When we get to Zwan the PR on Zwan was it was all some big star crossed match made in heaven between Billy and Sweeny, but the reality that Billy admits now is him and Jimmy just wanted to get unknown competent musicians in who he thought they could control.

I'm mean for years people read that Kim Thayl interview and thought it was some game Billy was playing but looking back I don't think so, he was like some bratty kid that resented not getting everyones love and attention.

Kim Gordon is mean because she won't hang out with me.

There was time when I thought the whole Lolla fallout was a combiantion of other bands being jealous, clashing cultures --Billy being aggressive musically and business wise--..

But no I look back now and for 30 years at this point every single person in the mans life eventually has the same reaction to him, even co-workers.

[reprise85]

He definitely has issues, I'm sure we could make a short list of possible diagnoses... and sometimes he seems very sincere... like in that "half of us" interview, or like Glynis. He did write some pretty mature songs from Adore - Zwan, too. But it's like he hit a wall he can't get passed, and so has reversed in an attempt to keep moving. Or something.

I guess my biggest question is did fame change him from what he really was? I don't know why that matters to me, but it does. I remember when that Rolling Stone interview about firing Jimmy came out, I was so mad I even talked in therapy about how BC fooled or lied to me or something, and some kind of remnant of the teenage me is very pissed off at him for not being a genuine person who really felt those things he sang about. It doesn't change what all that meant to me at the time, but now it feels like another brick in the wall of people who purposefully manipulate your feelings to get something from you. This is my own issue though, as I've had some really bad experiences in my life. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, someone singing about love and virtue while not really caring about either and is so good at it it fools millions of children.

I think that interview was my point of no return, where I accepted BC was not what I thought he was.

But then again some of those songs he must have been feeling, right? I obviously am having a problem deciding what I really believe on this.

[fuzzyroes]

I think Corgan was genuine in the early days. I don't think you can fake a song like Disarm.

It seems like the fame just went to his head and completely amplified any mental issues he previously had. I mean, it'd be hard for any healthy person not to let all that fame and success go to their heads.

[Elphenor]

I think he meant the songs, I just don't see how you're deriving "good person" from the songs so that there's a contradiction.

[reprise85]

edit

nevermind i think good/bad person is not what im really going for

[reprise85]

Normally I just enjoy the songs when I listen to them but like I said some part of me really resents him.

[fuzzyroes]

Yeah, he's definitely not the passionate, caring, sensitive man that he was made out to be during the 90's.

[Elphenor]

I think the only song Corgan wrote that shows some self-awareness is "Here is no why" which I think is pretty much his best song lyrically

[Funbags]

Originally Posted by reprise85

I was so mad I even talked in therapy about how BC fooled or lied to me or something, and some kind of remnant of the teenage me is very pissed off at him for not being a genuine person who really felt those things he sang about.

Oh sweet baby Jesus.

[reprise85]

Lol I know. That interview pissed me off so much. It was just at that moment I think I accepted that Billy Corgan Is An Asshole after resisting it for so long. Dude has had a big impact on my life, sucks to accept that he isn't who you thought he was. Pouty face.

[ButtHash]

Originally Posted by reprise85

I guess my biggest question is did fame change him from what he really was? I don't know why that matters to me, but it does.

This is a very interesting topic, imo.

My theory is that BC is someone who feels things deeply but is also very immature, even today. I want to believe that he wanted to believe the things he sang in songs like Mayo, Tonight, Tonight, etc. It's that push/pull that's interesting to me.

Anyone else? Thoughts? I like reading about this. I wish I had more in-depth things to say for this discussion.

[reprise85]

I could speculate a lot about his feelings being a function of his narcissism, and that he is sort of emotionally stunted in many ways. Not that he didn't feel those things in those songs, but that the underlying feelings themselves in those songs are from an emotional standpoint of perhaps someone in their teens or early 20s. Which is what we all mostly were when we started listening (I was a bit younger), and really where he was when he wrote some of it, but he got to a certain point and couldn't mature past it, where some people continue to mature for many years.

If you look at how he talks in the media, which I really have avoided a lot of, he does not act like someone who is almost 50. But he is also not able to feel things about things he wrote about 20 years ago. So he has nothing to say.

I think his upbringing definitely stunted his emotional growth and that he unfortunately has some of what would be called "personality pathology" - symptoms of personality disorders such as Borderline PD or Narcissistic PD that are very hard to change or treat. Not a doctor and don't know him personally but the big hint is his lack of long lasting, stable personal relationships as well as a pattern of picking these young women to date who must practically worship him, plus his insistence that people are out to deprive him of things he's earned ("show me the culture...")

This is speculation, I'm not diagnosing him or saying I'm right but these are some thoughts off the top of my head.

[ButtHash]

Originally Posted by reprise85

Not that he didn't feel those things in those songs, but that the underlying feelings themselves in those songs are from an emotional standpoint of perhaps someone in their teens or early 20s. Which is what we all mostly were when we started listening (I was a bit younger), and really where he was when he wrote some of it, but he got to a certain point and couldn't mature past it, where some people continue to mature for many years.

This makes sense. You're saying that while the songs may have come from a genuine place, they maybe didn't come from the most mentally mature place for someone of his age?

Originally Posted by reprise85

If you look at how he talks in the media, which I really have avoided a lot of, he does not act like someone who is almost 50. But he is also not able to feel things about things he wrote about 20 years ago. So he has nothing to say.

I don't even think it's that he sounds like someone younger. He just doesn't make any sense anymore, and it's really sad. It seems like he's just talking a lot in interviews cus he has that platform and why not?

[run2pee]

Originally Posted by reprise85

I remember when that Rolling Stone interview about firing Jimmy came out, I was so mad I even talked in therapy about how BC fooled or lied to me or something, and some kind of remnant of the teenage me is very pissed off at him for not being a genuine person who really felt those things he sang about. It doesn't change what all that meant to me at the time, but now it feels like another brick in the wall of people who purposefully manipulate your feelings to get something from you. This is my own issue though, as I've had some really bad experiences in my life. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, someone singing about love and virtue while not really caring about either and is so good at it it fools millions of children.

I think that interview was my point of no return, where I accepted BC was not what I thought he was.

But then again some of those songs he must have been feeling, right? I obviously am having a problem deciding what I really believe on this.

I couldn't get into zeit so stopped paying attention to bill, but kept listening to the older albums. Then happened to see that exact interview and it left such a bad taste I stopped listening to the albums.

Didn't check in again until a friend said "hey there's this oceania thing that came out last year and apparently doesn't suck."

Anyway, I feel you. Especially the ambivalence you describe. I am fascinated, but repulsed as well.

[run2pee]

Originally Posted by Butt Pope

Run 2 Pee would have been a good username

Yeah I fucked up big time on the username

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by ButtHash

This makes sense. You're saying that while the songs may have come from a genuine place, they maybe didn't come from the most mentally mature place for someone of his age?

Yes, basically. Emotionally immature for his age, or at least eventually hit a point where he could not go further. I also feel like he must have been going through a lot of therapy when he wrote Adore, and possible during some of Zwan. Because he had more mature insights during those periods, even if his writing itself is not the most emotionally mature.

Take a song like XYU or Fuck You. Angry songs, no doubt. And very successful at expressing anger. But XYU is basically about abuse (emotional, possibly physical/sexual), and Fuck You is a temper tantrum. Which is not to say they are bad, I like them very much. But they are not mature lyrically.

Blank page is a good example of an emotional song that does have some depth of emotion, however. But I think those outside of SP fandom probably would think it was immature. I can't judge that though obviously.

I don't even think it's that he sounds like someone younger. He just doesn't make any sense anymore, and it's really sad. It seems like he's just talking a lot in interviews cus he has that platform and why not?

I really have avoided it too much to really have a good opinion. But he definitely doesn't sound mature, emotionally stable, or content. I do wish he could feel some peace. Shit, I wish everyone could - me included.

[Butt Pope]

Wanting to date young, beautiful women is not a sign of a mental illness or personality disorder, but of having a penis.

[chuckhagel]

Run to Pee Run to Peeeeeee Run to Pee
Pee on me

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Butt Pope

Wanting to date young, beautiful women is not a sign of a mental illness or personality disorder, but of having a penis.

You might find them attractive, but having a string of long term romantic relationships with 25 year olds when you are almost 50 is a sign of immaturity.

[Araneae]

Originally Posted by reprise85

You might find them attractive, but having a string of long term romantic relationships with 25 year olds when you are almost 50 is a sign of immaturity.

It is common in his industry. Though he did start dating his current one when she was 18, so yeah, creepy.

[bunny]

Originally Posted by reprise85

Lol I know. That interview pissed me off so much. It was just at that moment I think I accepted that Billy Corgan Is An Asshole after resisting it for so long. Dude has had a big impact on my life, sucks to accept that he isn't who you thought he was. Pouty face.

I come here for the same therapeutic reasons.
http://i.imgur.com/ByasGNA.jpg

[juliana]

Originally Posted by Butt Pope

Wanting to date young, beautiful women is not a sign of a mental illness or personality disorder, but of having a penis.

Dating is not the issue. He seems to want to have relationships with them and this one seems like she constantly working for him.

She can do a lot better than this old shit stain that makes her work in his tea shop. I really hope he doesn't fuck her up mentally. He seems to think being a manipulative asshole is his calling.

[slunken]

Originally Posted by reprise85

Blank page is a good example of an emotional song that does have some depth of emotion, however.

the lyrics are mostly lines that his ex-wife would bitch at him about and him trying to get the final word in. he said he just started typing lines directed at her in response to the things that she would say.

[Araneae]

Originally Posted by slunken

the lyrics are mostly lines that his ex-wife would bitch at him about and him trying to get the final word in. he said he just started typing lines directed at her in response to the things that she would say.

What...did you just make that up? That doesn't even make any sense. Do you remember the lines to Blank Page? Anyway, all Billy ever said is that it was a stream of consciousness poem about the anger he felt towards her.

Originally Posted by Billy

...up until that point, I had not dealt with my divorce in any of the new songs, which I thought was odd considering the bitter fallout, but I blamed it on the fact that I was in a fairly new relationship and maybe just didn’t feel like getting into it (my girlfriend at the time forbade me to speak of my marriage)…I woke up early on a crisp, sunny morning, and reeled off a stream of consciousness type poem that seemed very much to deal with my anger towards my ex-wife…

[bunny]

Billy always only has one version of the truth. and the only true version is the latest updated version.