Hey charmbag, fuck you

[c|-|/-\R/\/\8@g]

Luke de Spa already clarified this issue about attraction. no one is saying it's wrong to be attracted to someone, or even to be attracted based solely on how someone looks.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

it's also weird that rbg thinks appreciating varying forms of nipples is indicative of his recognizing beauty in all of its varying forms

i mean come on

you're making this a lot more difficult than it has to be

you are taking something which was 75% for amusement 100% seriously.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by c|-|/-\R/\/\8@g

Luke de Spa already clarified this issue about attraction. no one is saying it's wrong to be attracted to someone, or even to be attracted based solely on how someone looks.

so it's just wrong to talk about it or act on it.

that doesn't really clarify anything. but ok.

[c|-|/-\R/\/\8@g]

Eulogy, if you want a feminism primer, apparently this blog has helped some people:

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com

Honestly the problem seems to come from the fact that you all think we live in a basically equal society. When you discuss porn and viewing images of women you talk about it as a sex/gender-neutral issue, like it's generally the same experience for a man as a woman. This is not how it plays out in real life. I'm not sure where to start if that is the case because it is like we live on two different planets.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by c|-|/-\R/\/\8@g

Eulogy, if you want a feminism primer, apparently this blog has helped some people:

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com

Honestly the problem seems to come from the fact that you all think we live in a basically
equal society.

I absolutely do not (seriously, are you fucking kidding me?). This is as disingenuous as me saying you don't think women deserve to have any sexual agency.

When you discuss porn and viewing images of women you talk about it as a sex/gender-neutral issue, like it's generally the same experience for a man as a woman.

No I don't. I talk about it as an individual issue. Because a woman should be able to do whatever sexually consensual thing she wants to do without having to worry about how someone like you thinks it plays into men's sexual desires and subjugation of women. Individual agency is important, even if your particular school of feminist thought doesn't think so.

It's not like there aren't feminist movements around that share my viewpoint here. And I think your thought processes resemble uptight, sex negative, women-should-remain-in-the-home-and-deny-their-existence-as-sexual-beings puritanism than anything that would be helpful to women in society, practically speaking.

[Mayfuck]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

This is as disingenuous as me saying you don't think women deserve to have any sexual agency...

Originally Posted by Eulogy

...I think your thought processes resemble uptight, sex negative, women-should-remain-in-the-home-and-deny-their-existence-as-sexual-beings puritanism than anything that would be helpful to women in societ

So what you're saying is you're disingenous

[Eulogy]

i drew a comparison. i was not asserting that she actually embraces puritanism. learn to read.

[Trotskilicious]

i think this is a productive interesting thread i wish we wouldn't get so angry at each other

[Eulogy]

i think what bothers me is that i'm willing to listen to them, but neither of them will really make any arguments. instead charmbag sends me to some horribly constructed blog that gives me a definition of objectification and the male gaze and answers questions like "if women like sex then what's wrong with rape? isn't it just rougher sex?"

yeah that's really what i need here.

[c|-|/-\R/\/\8@g]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

I absolutely do not (seriously, are you fucking kidding me?). This is as disingenuous as me saying you don't think women deserve to have any sexual agency.

No I don't. I talk about it as an individual issue. Because a woman should be able to do whatever sexually consensual thing she wants to do without having to worry about how someone like you thinks it plays into men's sexual desires and subjugation of women. Individual agency is important, even if your particular school of feminist thought doesn't think so.

It's not like there aren't feminist movements around that share my viewpoint here. And I think your thought processes resemble uptight, sex negative, women-should-remain-in-the-home-and-deny-their-existence-as-sexual-beings puritanism than anything that would be helpful to women in society, practically speaking.

I want women to have sex when and how they want. I really do. Believe it or not, I believe it's possible for sexuality to be suppressed and co-opted by media and cultural forces, and these are what I seek to place under the microscope. I question porn and I question male-centric sexuality, as well as violence and domination-fetishization - this is connected not to a total anti-fetish stance, but to a broader anti-violence stance and particularly an opposition to sexualized violence against women.

I would like to be able to discuss sex and these particular topics openly. I do not support legislation of censorship or any other kind of restrictive social law. I advocate for all manner of gay/lesbian and genderqueer rights and sexuality. I'm not sure why this is synonymous in your mind with a republican mindset just for QUESTIONING something just because you don't personally see the problem with it.

[c|-|/-\R/\/\8@g]

Also, what I personally think is helpful to women is to be listened to and have their experiences respected. I try to do that when I talk to other women even if we disagree. You seem to discount the fact that feminism and these particular ideas have helped ME and many other women deal with a lot of shit, and validated our feelings. I don't appreciate you ignoring the fact that I am a woman too. If you want to be prescriptive about what would help women, why am I not included in that?

[Mayfuck]

Well you really need to re-read the thread, Eulogy. You came in around page 5 or 6 and reiterated pretty much completely what trots said 6 pages ago. A productive discussion folowed, and all your points were addressed by me by Charmbag by LDS, even ****** had a couple good posts if you read into them. Stop repeating this nonsense that any of us said sex was bad or demeaning on its own.

[redbreegull]

charmbag's position is based on an emotional reaction which she can't seem to channel into any sensical argument. She thinks that we are closed to her point of view, but the truth is that she is so reactionary and absolute in her assertions about the objectionable nature of a nude female that she comes across as having some major sexual repression issues, not an intelligent point.

[Mayfuck]

rbg the adults are talking

[redbreegull]

mayfuck you are a moron, go away

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by c|-|/-\R/\/\8@g

I want women to have sex when and how they want. I really do. Believe it or not, I believe it's possible for sexuality to be suppressed and co-opted by media and cultural forces, and these are what I seek to place under the microscope. I question porn and I question male-centric sexuality, as well as violence and domination-fetishization - this is connected not to a total anti-fetish stance, but to a broader anti-violence stance and particularly an opposition to sexualized violence against women.

This discussion is a lot harder to have when you refuse to get any more specific. Whenever I ask you about something specific, you freak out and refuse to answer. Give me an example of sexuality being "suppressed and co-opted by media and cultural forces."

The only reason (probably not the only reason but don't get hung up on that) porn exemplifies male-centric sexuality is because the majority of porn consumers are men. This is not inherently indicative of misogyny. Men just are generally more visual in their sexual self-stimulation and masturbate with greater frequency.

Your stance against violence in all forms is a little strange too. All forms? What about where the woman is dominant? And what do you suggest people who are into BDSM do? Avoid doing what they want because you don't like the idea of sexual violence in any context? And I even hesitate to use the word "violence" because a consensual sexual act that two people enjoy participating in together really shouldn't be considered violence just because it would appear to be just that in a different context.

Does this mean that sometimes an unhealthy person will view something out of that context and in a really horrid light? I suppose it does. But that's a problem with that person and should be dealt with accordingly. I think an analogy can be made to the people who say women who dress certain ways are "asking for it" and all that nonsense. Blame the rapist/person who views porn or the existence of BDSM communities in the wrong way. Not the people participating in it because they see it as an expression of their sexuality that they enjoy.

I would like to be able to discuss sex and these particular topics openly. I do not support legislation of censorship or any other kind of restrictive social law. I advocate for all manner of gay/lesbian and genderqueer rights and sexuality. I'm not sure why this is synonymous in your mind with a republican mindset just for QUESTIONING something just because you don't personally see the problem with it.

it's not synonymous with a republican mindset. i just think it targets something that isn't really a cause or effect of most (or any) of society's problems when it comes to gender issues. it's an easy and potentially obvious target, but i don't think it's the right one.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by c|-|/-\R/\/\8@g

Also, what I personally think is helpful to women is to be listened to and have their experiences respected. I try to do that when I talk to other women even if we disagree. You seem to discount the fact that feminism and these particular ideas have helped ME and many other women deal with a lot of shit, and validated our feelings. I don't appreciate you ignoring the fact that I am a woman too. If you want to be prescriptive about what would help women, why am I not included in that?

i don't discount that it helps you. but it becomes an issue when you heap it onto women who feel differently. women who maybe like participating in what you see as destructive and male-centric.

no one is going to demean you for not participating in or viewing porn (and if it seems like i have done that then i apologize because that isn't fair). on the other side of that coin should be the idea that you shouldn't demean women who genuinely want to participate in or view porn. denouncing all pornography as anti-women does exactly that.

[Trotskilicious]

I question porn and I question male-centric sexuality

i think i have trouble conceptualizing sexuality that is not male-centric precisely because it is

[Trotskilicious]

however i do think women have some advantage by being able to be passive about prospective partners while on the other hand a passive male is going to be

[Mayfuck]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

however i do think women have some advantage by being able to be passive about prospective partners while on the other hand a passive male is going to be

Well, I mean, whose fault is this

[Trotskilicious]

i dunno i have the right to be who i am right

[Mayfuck]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

i dunno i have the right to be who i am right

oh no i didn't mean you, i meant its men's fault. you know, as a gender. you're basically sayin you're envious because women are the sexual class and you're not but i'm just sayin becareful what you wish for!!

[c|-|/-\R/\/\8@g]

Is it okay if I just take on one point at a time? Having a simultaneous discussion about S&M and porn and hypersexualization and and and is kind of hard.

Originally Posted by Eulogy

This discussion is a lot harder to have when you refuse to get any more specific. Whenever I ask you about something specific, you freak out and refuse to answer. Give me an example of sexuality being "suppressed and co-opted by media and cultural forces."

I'm referring to the narrow ways women are expected to express themselves sexually. How about mainstream porn and the trends that follow it regarding pubic hair, anal sex, facials etc?

it's not synonymous with a republican mindset. i just think it targets something that isn't really a cause or effect of most (or any) of society's problems when it comes to gender issues. it's an easy and potentially obvious target, but i don't think it's the right one.

What is the right target?

Originally Posted by Eulogy

i don't discount that it helps you. but it becomes an issue when you heap it onto women who feel differently. women who maybe like participating in what you see as destructive and male-centric.

no one is going to demean you for not participating in or viewing porn (and if it seems like i have done that then i apologize because that isn't fair). on the other side of that coin should be the idea that you shouldn't demean women who genuinely want to participate in or view porn. denouncing all pornography as anti-women does exactly that.

It didn't "seem like it" - You've made weird personal remarks about what it's probably like to fuck me the last several times we've talked about this so this whole premise of worrying about demeaning women seems pretty disingenuous. I don't think discussing this or any feminist issue demeans women. If I feel demeaned by porn and someone (I've never encountered this) feels demeaned by my opposition to porn, then I guess we're at a standstill.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by c|-|/-\R/\/\8@g

Is it okay if I just take on one point at a time? You just kinda went on a rant.

I'm referring to the narrow ways women are expected to express themselves sexually. How about mainstream porn and the trends that follow it regarding pubic hair, anal sex, facials etc?

This is true of mainstream everything. And you say this while also implying that a woman into the DS side of a BDSM relationship shouldn't be able to do what they want. Isn't that narrowing the way women are supposed to express themselves sexually? Trends regarding pubic hair are not gender specific and go in cycles, as far as any of us can probably tell. Some girls like anal and facials. No woman should feel as though she is expected to do either of those things if she doesn't want to. But it is, again, not inherently wrong.

What is the right target?

Things that actually target the inequalities present in society. Women earning less than men. Men (and some women) feeling that, for one example, they can't vote for Hillary Clinton for president because she's a "bitch." More laws that enable women to work and raise a family in the way they want if that's what they choose to do. Reaffirm Roe v. Wade and the spirit of Griswold and connect it more to women's individual decision making with regard to their own bodies and less about a "couple" making decisions about "starting families." Maybe making a shitty sitcom where a woman who isn't conventionally attractive has a smokin' hot husband. etc.

Stopping porn or limiting people's sexuality seems like a weird place to begin.

It didn't "seem like it" - You've made weird personal remarks about what it's probably like to fuck me the last several times we've talked about this

What?

so this whole premise of worrying about demeaning women seems pretty disingenuous. I don't think discussing this or any feminist issue demeans women. If I feel demeaned by porn and someone (I've never encountered this) feels demeaned by my opposition to porn, then I guess we're at a standstill.

i just think it's disrespectful and unnecessarily limiting to claim that certain sex acts/depictions of sex acts have to be taken off of the table. people should be able to do what they want (and you say you're all for that, but that isn't borne out in anything else you say at all).

[Eulogy]

and why do you, once again, ignore most of my specific questions??

it really makes it seem like this is all empty academic rhetoric. which i'm sure is isn't. but you need to couch your arguments in tangible things instead of abstract ideas.

[duovamp]

Ayo why women gotta put me in a corner when they want to be feminists?

[TuralyonW3]

Jesus fuck this thread was 1 page yesterday. Cliff Notes anyone?

[mxzombie]

1. redbreegull's a moron
2.

[Eulogy]

charmbag hates all pornography

i think she should be more discerning

julio got the bat signal

rbg said some weird things

trots expressed interest in having a more thoughtful conversation than we're usually capable of having

basically it

[TuralyonW3]

People who hate/dismiss all pornography have serious, serious issues